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Sorry I took so long. Crazy week. Anyway, I purchased an Autumnburst Bravo Deluxe from Bob's Boutique in the Spring of 2019. Flawlessly constructed, effortless to play and beautiful to look at. The Bravo with the B6 pickup sounded fantastic when the guitar was plugged in. The guitar sounded fairly decent unplugged, but I didn't expect more than that as it is a laminate top. Other pros of the guitar were the body depth and size. Very comfortable guitar to sit with, stand with as well as relax at night on the sofa and noodle while watching TV. The light weight was nice as well. I don't have this any more and you'll understand why.
Originally Posted by McGregor
In January of 2022 after a few years of thinking about it, I took the 7 string plunge. Sold some firewood and got an Eastman 7, which I could not put down. After almost a full year of playing that, the larger neck size was starting to give me hand problems, but I was able to score a Palen carved top 7 with a beautiful neck of the size that's right for me. My six string jazz guitars (not my R&R sixers), including a nice GB10 and the Bravo Deluxe, weren't getting the love.
So I made two decisions: 1. I'd sell the Bravo Deluxe and get myself a second 7 string. 2. I'd sell the GB10 and a couple of other pieces of firewood I had and try to get an L5 - well because it's an L5 and so I'd still have one 6 string jazz guitar to play. I also love the sound of 57 classics.
After a few months of trying to find a quality used 7 string that was under 10K, wasn't a project guitar and had a neck that would fit me, I ordered a Benedetto Bravo 7 in opulent brown. Benedetto worked with me for no extra charge and carved the neck to a spec I wanted. The sale of the Bravo Deluxe funded most of the purchase. The new Bravo 7 arrived recently, and I must say it is the most immaculately finished guitar I've ever owned. It actually sounds a little better unplugged than my memory of the Bravo Deluxe. I'd buy a Benedetto again in a heartbeat. I'll post a NGD post when I get a chance.
The L-5: I found a beautiful 2003 L-5. Cost much more than the Benedetto and my guitar sales didn't quite fund the purchase. This was one of those YOLO purchases. The L-5 with the 57 classics has, in my mind just about the prettiest jazz guitar sound through an amp. I may be biased on that because my high school band director played that instrument and I was always smitten by his playing and sound. This L-5 doesn't disappoint. Unplugged it sounds very nice as well, which I am a little surprised about with the set in pickups. My Palen 7 which is in many ways similar to the L-5, does sound a little better unplugged as it has a floating pickup. The burst on the L-5 is beautiful, but like many other Gibson's I've owned, including the Johnny A which I still have, the finish is just a few notches below where it should be. Not bad, but not close to perfect. The neck is comfortable to play, but the body is a large and deep body, so it's not quite as comfy as the Benedetto Bravo. The 57 classic pickups are prone to rattle a bit and the L-5 pickup selectors are really kind of cheesy for such a nice instrument, Ibanez really got the selector right on the GB10.
So why is my final assessment and advice? Of course it's best to play an example of both, but that doesn't really seem to be possible most of the time these days. I really can't tell you. I've become such a sucker for the 7 string, that if one has to go, it is going to be the Gibson. The Benedetto B6 and B7 pickups sound absolutely fantastic, but I suppose my dream 7 string would have a 57 classic made for a 7 string. I know that the Gibson will hold its value if and when I sell it, but I didn't too to badly on the Benedetto at all when I sold it. I don't buy guitars for the investment, I buy them to play them and chase that sound I have in my head. Obviously not wise financially.Last edited by Zigracer; 04-24-2024 at 10:58 AM.
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04-19-2024 01:21 PM
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Thank you Zig for taking the time to express your thoughts and insight. As a new member, this is a special place.
Music is an art form, in all facets of a vast spectrum of talented people, very subjective, unique and expressive.
Opening up with the forum, on the decision in purchasing my first “Jazz Box” is an experience.
There seems to be endless options that have risen in the discussion. By no means confusing, just stuff I hadn’t thought of in the process.
I’m now more aware of why most of you have at least 3-4 guitars.
Im thinking about a Go-Fund-Me
to help offset the cost of my addiction.
I have the Benedetto on order with a down payment in play, most likely would loss it…
and my the blonde WesMo is very much on the table…
Gotta work on the budget..
All comments, thoughts and insight welcome..
thank you!!!
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Does anyone have any insight on this WesMo?
The price is very reasonable…
Hutchins has some validity…
Any thoughts…
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I am an atheist but sweet baby jaysus...Very reasonable? Wine Red?? In that condition??? Originally Posted by McGregor
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Not sure if it the mindset of those that have a strong opinion,
Does color play into the perception
of value…?? it seems that the standard “Authentic” color is the Autumn Burst (?) followed by Natural/Blonde…
The Wine is very attractive, I guess it’s subjective..
Thanks Jab, I was reading a past blog on Gibson’s Crimson designation, your insight is refreshing and very helpful.
thx!!
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I too looked at that guitar but really too much for a Wine Red. I see just now it is on hold. I would not pay this for a wine red but possibly a Sunburst. I don't see the color itself having any effect on the playing. Assuming all equal the color is just a price factor. I will say I would never own a black guitar hate them. I believe a Sunburst has about a $400-500 premium and a blond could go to around $750 more. Realize this is just my take. Right now these guitars are holding premium price. I have other options at the $7000-$8500 price range that would be to me as good. They would not be a Wes L5 as such but for me equal without spending the extra cash.
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I agree with the deacon above. That price feels steep for a wine red but again, color doesn’t impact tone or playability and it’s subjective. “Market value” is ultimately an imaginary average of individuals preferences. If you like wine red and have the cash go for it. I’d personally hold out or get a blonde one from gryphon or another shop.
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Wine "Rustoleum" Red and Ebony are the cheap Gibson finishes. No impact on tone or playability. But they are the lowest cost finish and hence you should not pay too much for them. Natural costs the most because Gibson uses the best and most highly figured wood for Natural. The condition of that 2002 WR is the other issue.
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It gets complicated, does the versatility of the Super 400 put offset the size..?
As a couch concert artist, the option just came up..and of course just when you thought the holy grail of guitars come into view
Thoughts…?
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The Super 400 CES is just marvellous- I would urge you to play one if you get the chance. Magisterial and utterly accomplished. Effortlessly great. Originally Posted by McGregor
For me, the trick is to play it spanish/classical style- the curve on the lower side sits very comfortably on my left leg and that way there is no “reaching around” with the right arm and its just as comfortable as any other archtop.
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My concern is the 400 is a Norlin era model and has been stamped “2nd”…
this could be my forever guitar but in the case of trade options or sale there might be a depreciation.
Lovely guitar in all aspects…
thank you for your comments!
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I don’t have any hands on experience of a Norlin era S400- but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy one if I had the chance to demo it and thought it was a fine instrument.
all the youtube video’s of Norlin era S400 CES sound beautiful and my impression is that the small run, high end archtop builds were perhaps not affected by the Norlin approach and may have been built the same way they always had been? I don’t know but there may well be some owners of Norlin S400’s here who could offer a more informed view.
Its my understanding that “2nd” referred to minor cosmetic blemishes picked up in QC but I don’t know for sure- yes that will affect resale value but it should all be equal as the current selling price should reflect that too.
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I’m learning more about the history of the instruments and how they are valued to better understand the market.
There’s a sigma on the Gibson Norlin era that is perplexing.
I’m in manufacturing and can relate to production hiccups along the way, but I don’t have a clear understanding of how bad or how quality levels varied during this time. More importantly what lines were effected.
High-end luxury models are usually the least affected based on the individual managing the production and materials within the supply chain.
How can you invest in a vintage guitar that’s thrown into a timeframe of speculation? Of course sampling the guitar is the best answer, a difficult task based on geography.
Im sure Gibson as a marketing machine that keeps pushing the brand, though history is in the rear view and will remain.
thoughts?
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You left out a "T" in stigma and the result is the name that Martin used for their Asian imports back in the day. A "Freudian slip" of sorts? Originally Posted by McGregor
I have owned Gibsons from the Norlin era, the pre-Norlin era and the post Norlin era. My experience is that all eras have guitars that are good and bad. The one thing I would say is that during the Norlin era, there were changes in how some guitars were made that some guitarists do not like, including, but not limited to:
Volutes
Narrower headstock angle
Chrome vs. Nickel plating
Plainer woods on premium models
Brighter pickups
Maple vs. Mahogany necks on some models
"Pancake" body construction on some solid body guitars
One should decide if any of these characteristics are present on any Norlin era guitars before purchase. If these characteristics are a bother, spend more and buy a Gibson from a different era.
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Thanks great feed back- this type of info is not regularly available-
I guess it comes down to finding the instrument you feel is the best for your budget and abilities- but as you look at the prices of what many of us consider the gold standard the gold just might be brass… it’s all part of the journey…
gotta love it..
thanks!
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If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking seriously at the Benedetto 16-B in the for sale section here.
But, hey, I'm a Benedetto guy. Check out Jocelyn Gould and the tone she is getting from her 16-B. She is, of course, a very gifted player.
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I will say this about the Norlin era: The solid bodies and the semi-hollows are what gave the era its reputation. For the high end archtops, it's "guilt by association". The flip side to this is that it makes them more affordable.
Quality on S400s, L-5s, etc. did not suffer as much as the other guitars. They were still made by Gibson's best in a dedicated part of the factory. The worst you can say about them is they used plainer woods and, later in the 70s-early 80s, they had volutes (which isn't necessarily a bad thing; just different). I haven't played a Norlin S400, but a good friend of mine has a Norlin L-5CES that I've played extensively and A/B'ed against two Hutch L-5s. The Norlin is a little bit brighter, but is still a quality instrument.
In short, don't let the era's reputation be what scares you away from the Super 400.
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Thanks Andrew, are you familiar with the “second” making and its reference to market- there’s little said, though the value is somewhat diminished but not sure how Gibson at that time (80s’) explained this mark???
More in archtops than the other models??
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Yes, I've seen the factory second marking before on archtops and solidbodies alike. It was probably due to some minor cosmetic flaw that prevented the guitar from being sold as new. After all these decades of being played, it's probably hard (if not impossible) to differentiate the original flaw from the natural bumps, bruises, and play wear a guitar has had.
You're right that there will be a bit of a hit to the resale price. Shooting from the hip, I would say maybe about 10-15% off compared to a factory "first" example. Again, not necessarily a dealbreaker as long as it's priced accordingly (A Norlin factory second should be one of the cheapest Super 400-CESes on the market).
And, as far are future resale is concerned, anything with "Gibson" on it (or "Fender" for that matter) has a leg up on the competition.
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I have a 1959 ES-225 T archtop. After 64 years I can not tell what was the reason for the 2nd marking. It's not about the era or the markings it's all about the guitar. I would not shy away from a Norlin era S400. If it was a great guitar I would embrace it. I actually like the plainer Norlin woods. There I said it and will not take it back.
Thanks John
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Thanks John! Do you have photo of your 59’…. great sound.. what amp are you using?
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Any insight on the Alessandro Greyhound- Italian jazz amp…
hey I’m half Italian I know what you’re think…
anyone have any experience on this one?
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