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Read with interest the preceeding D'An thread as I was looking for a small inexpensive but reasonable quality guitar. This question is for members like SSwinger TRM and others who have real DAs and experience. Ill start by saying that as a kid when at my friends house I would often see and hear his dad playing a '40s NYer that John made for him and often Bucky was there playing with him as they were friends. Even though I was a young teen I never got over the look and sound of those guitars. So I start every morning with a cup of coffee and perusal of archtops on line. I see TRM has a few beauties for sale and occasionally a "master built" copy will pop up. Ive often wondered how the copys (like say V Baker) hold up in comparison and see some priced as high or higher than a real one. But now there are 2 on Rev made in Arroyo Grande Ca. presumably from the same maker but different sellers both asking $8k and both exibiting the same flaw, a "split?" on the top seam at the tailpiece running almost to the bridge. The flaw looks exactly the same on both guitars. Seems a funny coincident theyre both up for sale at the same time for the same price. Im assuming theyre not Bakers since hes in NY. My question is, how were the "master builders" vetted? How can 2 guitars fail in the exact same way? I know some here have/had Heritage versions how do they compare. Do any of these hint of DAness? Mostly Im thinking of the original buyers who must have thought they were getting a modern masterpiece. I guess what started me down this road was the comments in the former thread about "Asian" manufacturing and wondering how many have a split top problem. Actually, my wifes out of town so Im eating everything Im not supposed to eat and playing watching and reading guitar till I fall asleep in my guitar chair. Figured someone else must think about these things. Happy strumming
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04-02-2024 07:59 PM
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I will start by saying you cannot make a guitar new that is over 50-80 years old. No luthier on the planet can make a Dangelico guitar of any model from the 30-40’s. It is all about age. Are the new ones better? That is an ear opinion but facts are 80 years and playing have consequences. More later.
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I could be wrong, but I had assumed that the Arroyo Grande guitars were made by Gene Baker. As far as the top cracks, assuming that’s common in these, I would worry that the spruce had not been adequately dried before building. I have no way to know if this is common in these guitars. It can also happen if an archtop is stored in conditions that are too dry and could happen to any guitar.
Now to the question of copies comparing to originals. Let me say up front that the tonal qualities of vintage D’As can vary quite a bit in my experience. That’s not really a surprise considering they range in size from 16” to 18”and have differing bracing, parallel vs X. Beyond that there are many other more subtle variations in the builds. On top of that, they vary from 90 to about 60 years old. During that time they have all experienced different amounts and styles of play as well as varied climate conditions.
I’ve played guitars that are meant to be fairly “exact copies” as well as guitars greatly inspired by John D’As work in a more general sense. The copies are the ones that seem to fall the farthest short of matching up to the best of the original D’As that they are intended to mimic faithfully. I haven’t played one of the Arroyo Grande made guitars, so I can’t comment on those. I have played Heritage and Triggs builds and while decent archtops they were pretty middle of the road. For the player, I would recommend many archtops before these (vintage Gibson and Epiphone in general for example).
As far as guitars more in the vein of “inspired by” or in the general lineage of without being exorbitantly expensive I would recommend guitars made by luthiers such as Mark Lacey or Bryant Trenier well before any of the “masterbuilt” D’As. They can definitely be had in the same price range.
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There was a California Luthier named Baker (different from the New York luthier named Baker) who made the licensed DA hand made replicas for a time.
I have played about a dozen real DA's (and I own three, a 1935 Excel, a 1937 Style A and a 1948 Style B) and I own a heritage Replica (A New Yorker that was part of the D'Angelico II project). I have played one of the Michael Lewis Replicas.
Here is the deal. There is nothing like the real thing. John D'Angelico was a master craftsman whose guitars have aged like fine wine. Play one and you will agree (assuming that an acoustic archtop is to your liking). The only guitars that compare (IMO) are Gibson archtops from the same period. My Heritage replica is very "Gibson" sounding, but it is from the 90's and cannot compete with the 80 plus years of my real DA's. The Lewis replica was superb as well, but again, it lacked the sound of vintage, well played tonewood.
I am afraid that the only way to experience the magic of a vintage DA is to pay the price of admission and get a vintage DA. The replica's are great guitars, but a good Campellone will get you the same sound and playability (I have a good Campellone and while it competes well with my Heritage Replica, compared to a real DA it falls short. Perhaps in 70 years that will not be the case, but I won't be around to see if that is the case).
TRM has some real D'A's for sale. Check them out! HTH
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I don’t claim to be an expert. I’ve owned a few original D’As, and have played several…maybe close to a dozen. I’ve never played a clone that sounded like the real thing.I lean towards the loud, strident, 4 to the bar type of acoustic archtop, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.
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Well said! I agree with this completely. I currently have 5 D’As in my possession and nothing compares. Forum members can get the best deal on the ones I have for sale by contacting me directly, as always.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Years ago, my teacher, Sid Margolis, who was a big band player in the 30s to 50s told me that not all D'Angelicos (referring to the originals) were great. It was in response to me telling him that somebody coming into Buddy's Music Center trying to sell one for $400.
I don't know what he based it on or if it's true. But, Sid was a contemporary, knew his stuff and wasn't prone to that sort of complaint.
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This is great intel, Chuck your sayin no later made namesakes are going to get that sound and it sounds like everyone agrees so all the marketing chatter about "we used the latest MRI technology to break it down to the molecule" which was what they were claiming when they made these "Masterbuilts" is really meaningless, which is what I was wondering as Ill most likely not get closer than a utube example Id never get to hear it (probably a good thing) Thanks guys, this is as deep into the WWWilderness as I go so I can get some info here and go look at pictures on reverb.
Im thinkin chocolate
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Rick, that has to be true based on my experience with vintage Gibsons and Epiphones. I have played some duds. But every real D'Angelico that I have played has been great (and truth be told, somewhat varied). But no one bats 1000 percent so I am going to agree with Sid, even though my experience does not comport with what he told you. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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His opinion is true of any type of guitar, violin or any other type of instrument for that matter, some more so than others. But when you get into the world of DAs and Stradivarius violins there are far less strident examples than some other makers. Not duds mind you but some are quite a bit better than others. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Heck, I even had a vintage Hammond B3 at home that my organ playing friends said was just eh, and after hearing many others since, I can say it applies to them, as well as guitar amps, etc....
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Rpjazzguitar, Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
We have something in common. I was also a student of Sid and still have all his weekly assignments - what a great experience. Sid played in the Frankie Carle band and was well connected with other musicians. I found his wealth of knowledge helpful when building my guitar collection.
As many have noted - the real DA’s possess a magic that sort of became the “new” benchmark for acoustic Archtop players. In the earlier days of John’s building, the Loar L5 was certainly his main influence and you can hear the similarities in the snakehead and style A D’Angelico’s from the 30’s. I own a 35’ snakehead and it’s a fabulous guitar. These early guitars have 24-3/4 scale lengths and are parallel braced.
Keep in mind - D’Angelico guitars were mainly custom builds for those who could afford one, and over time playing needs changed - such as the introduction of pickup’s - which necessitated thicker tops for feedback resistance. John’s guitars changed as well to suit the needs of the players. So acoustically speaking , there is quite a bit of variation as his guitars evolved. Some parallel braced , others X braced. But it’s also the decades of seasonal changes, aged lacquer and playing which brings out the best of any instrument.
As for current Luthiers who I believe get you very close to a new Kenmare experience at a fair price - Bryant Trenier. I also find the Triggs guitars from early 90’s to get very close too.
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Here’s a comparison of some old guitars (a dotneck L5 and 30s Excel) and a more modern guitar based on the older designs.
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Nice playing as always and thx ! Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
That Excel just kills it ! That sound sure reminds me of my '37 L-7. My nephew has it now, but man if I ever stumbled upon another - - ... : )
Thanks again ! Now that's the way to start a day !
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Good timing on this thread. I saw that Guitars 'N Jazz just dropped the price of their D'angelico that has a good amount of repairs done to it. For a hot minute there, I strongly considered it, until I noticed the 1-3/4" nut width. But now the bug has been planted and I am considering parting with a few other things in exchange for a Style A with a smaller neck.
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I have a 37 New Yorker and a 49 NY cutaway. None of the guitars I have played that are not made within 10 or less years of these guitars really sound anything like them. They are both very different sounding D'angelico's. The 37 is brighter than 49 but has a ring in all the registers of sound that the 49 does not. The 49 has a deep and throbbing bass presence by far the most bass sounding Dangelico that I remember playing. It is my favorite, but we are different. My good friend Paul Schmidt who wrote the book ACQUIRE OF THE ANGELS, all about D'angelico and D'aquisto guitars, much prefers my 37 NY. In fact, the says it is his favorite one for sound. He has played many for sure.
Qaman is completely correct in they are all different and vary widely in both specs and sound. I have been lucky over the years and have play I would imagine at least 100 D'angelico guitars if not closer to 150. Once at the late Mike Katz house I was able to play 8 or 9 different ones in one setting. I have played some that were simply good guitars but maybe not anything super special but no real duds. I was able to play Johnny Smith's personal D'angelico when I visited his store many year ago. It was a fine guitar and very smooth. Personally I like the sound of my own D'angelico's better.
I have owned 6 of them over the years and kept the 2 new yorkers. I had a 1953 Excel blond that was very smooth not particularly loud but nice. I owned a 1945 Style A that was a nice guitar. I don't remember it standing out as super special but fine. I had a 1937 Style B that was very nice I wish I still had that guitar. I was responsive in all the registers and had volume. To top in off I had 19 inch cutaway New Yorker from 1953. Had block inlays not split like a New Yorker and is listed as an Excel in the Ledgers. It however had New Yorker inlay in the headstock art deco design. Here is a picture of the guitar in Bill Hollenbeck's shop I believe in the early 1990's. Note the size I am 6'2" so the guitar takes up space. The guitar was wonderful and had volume but for as big as it was it did not necessarily have more volume than any other 18 inch NY. Needless to say, like guitars I have aged much since that photo.
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" Once at the late Mike Katz house I was able to play 8 or 9 different ones in one setting"
yeah, Michael couldn't play a lick but was way ahead of the curve when it came to collecting. I was at his house in Roslyn on Long Island a couple times, the first to buy a 1930 L-5 [my first vintage guitar] and the next to buy his friend's '31. I played all those DA's, he had a great sounding early snakehead I offered him my car for if he would drive me to the train station so I could get home, true story and I was serious, but he just laughed. He was buying NYers for less than a grand in the late 60s/70s when no one really wanted them didn't have many Gibsons, loved those DA's. But his real love was prewar Martins and he about had them all. His dad had invented the door locking system on the back of UPS trucks or something along those lines and had $ to burn and liked having people over to play his guitars. I think his kids wound up w/ the collection when he passed but that's the last I heard of them.
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Well, might as well add this, if anyone can get all the sound from a D'A its Vinny(school of Bucky)
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The original guitars, is built by John D'Angelico trade for a premium because of who he was and what they are, and their respective places in jazz guitar history. I see no reason that a modern reproduction by a luthier should go for an extra premium for a copying his name, when he had nothing to do with them. They should be priced the same as any other luthier-built archtop guitar of similar quality, but they are often priced higher simply because of the name. IMHO that is just trading on someone else's reputation and, unfortunately, John's name has had that indignity applied to it.
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Others, such as Johnny Smith, Mundell, etc. have said similar things. Even John himself apparently considered that he was doing pretty well if one out of four guitars was truly great in his estimation. Although I suspect his less than great guitars were still far better than most. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I agree with this. I know for a fact that when GHS owned the name, Michael Lewis had to give them $3000 per guitar for the D'Angelico replicas that he built (and sold). What a purchaser got for that was a Michael Lewis hand built archtop for a $3000 premium price. It could be argued that the D'Angelico cosmetics are worth more to some collectors who cannot afford a genuine D'Angelico and for the money they paid, it is as close as they can get. Originally Posted by Cunamara
But, IMO, it is not close enough. I wonder if any of the US built replicas sell for much more on the used market than similar guitars by those makers under the makers own name? If they do, it means there is still a market for the hand built replicas, and that for those buyers, it is close enough.
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Very cool to hear from another student of Sid's. Originally Posted by QAman
You might recall his blond L5. There were two of them that I recall. One was stolen, and the other was the replacement. At some point he got the stolen one back (there's an interesting story told by Jack Wilkins about that).
And he had a Harmony Monterey for the students and his old "ten tubes" Gibson amp.
The only date I remember for the L5's was 1939. I don't know if it was one or both. I do recall that the blond L5 sounded like it had built in reverb. Best acoustic sound I ever heard -- and I include several D'Angelicos in that assessment, with the usual caveat about memory and hearing and mood and sunspots.
It has been about 60 years since I studied with Sid. I use what he taught me in everything I do now. He taught me to read. He taught big band style rhythm (I play in two BB's now), which requires reading. He taught repertoire out of the old Cardex fakebook -- which included a lot of tunes that still get called. I play in some other bands, all of which require reading.
And, then I studied with Carl Barry in Sid's studio and picked up more stuff that I use every day, most importantly, Chuck Wayne's chordal system (which makes chord melody easier) arps and scales. Jack Wilkins taught there at the same time in the room next to Sid's. Carl was in the front room.
Overall, a fantastic experience which has paid dividends for decades.
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Rpjazzguitar, Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yes, the blonde non-cut L5. One of the finest guitars I've ever played. That was the stolen guitar - which was eventually recovered with a broken neck. John Monteleone repaired the neck in the early 80's.
Just before Sid passed - I visited him in the Hospital with another student / friend Jack Gross, who purchased the guitar from Sids wife Ruth. I haven't seen Jack in over 20 years - but I'd sure like to get that guitar in my collection one day.
The lessons from Sid were invaluable. They provided me with a life long skill set. He insisted on me reading many different books, including Paganini , jazz syncopation studies, solfeggio etc.etc. I still use those books on and off. Its been a wonderful musical journey and I'll never forget his generosity, guidance, encouragement and wisdom.
I apologize to the Op for getting off course, but sometimes these discussions lead us into our past a bit.
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the op digs it!
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op stands for old person....? right?
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Another Sid Margolis alumni here!!
1965-1966.
Ah, Kings Highway in the 60s.
Tony D.
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