Alnico 2 vs Alnico 5 tone

[voyage]

The three amps I use the most are my polytone mega brute with a 15, my 65 fender pro with a Kendrick reverb tank, and my early 90s Petersen 100. Mostly the polytone. I'm going to Denver later in April and picking parlor there has Henriksens in stock and I will take my polytone and an archtop to see how those sound compared to my polytone.

[jorgemg1984]

OK, those are all great amps, nothing wrong there

[voyage]

A lifetime's collection. :-)

[JCat]

Yes. But I think this gets pretty close. This is the sound I hope to get out of my Edwards 335 7 but maybe a little darker. I don't know what pickups Stryker plays either but I think he plays an unmodified 347. In an interview he said he keeps the tone control all the way on.

Hey OP,

We are listening to a hi-fi recording, i.e. a virtual representation of reality.
You know there are many ways to record a sound and there are so many parameters involved that have greater influence than pickup magnets.

In this clip it appears like he's using one of the most iconic amps; a Fender 5E3 Deluxe.
When we plug humbuckers into a 5E3 and play on low clean volume, this is typically what it sounds like. With this amp I prefer A5 magnets, not too hot. T-Tops or similar is a good match with a 5E3. Also note the pickup selector in middle position. Also note the white pedal on top of that amp, which most likely is a reverb pedal jumpered into the second channel. Instant Jazz. Good luck.

[edpirie]

Maybe a bit off topic, as this is P90 only, but...

I have been chasing a tone for months - it was my friend's 1952 ES-140 with original Gibson P90, that had the sweetest highs. I have an Archtop Tribute ATC175 that had a P90 with Alnico 5s and I found it a bit brittle/thin on the top E string. I concluded it must be the Alnico 5s, so replaced it with a Bare Knuckle Half Note (Alnico 3s), much sweeter/rounder on the high E now. Not quite "the tone" but I'm more than happy with it and it's a fabulous guitar all round - light, resonant, easy to play...

Over the months since I returned my friend's ES-140, I tried a number of 50's ES-125s and one ES-175 that just didn't have it, a '49 ES-150 came close. Then I recently found a 1952 ES-125 (original P90) that had the exact same sweetness and bought it on the spot. Most satisfying sound to my ears of any jazz guitar I have played. Obviously old P90 with the mojo and Alnico 2s, right? No, it seems Gibson used Alnico 5s in the '50s (there's a photo of a catalogue on one of the threads here), or possibly something similar to Alnico 4s (another thread somewhere with a link to a study).

And to buy the ES-125 I had to sell my 2018 ES-330 (MHS P90s with Alnico 2s), that had the same brittle high E which I couldn't tame with higher gauge flats, nylon saddles etc.

So in conclusion, my experience is the magnets may make a difference, but it's far from simple, and changing to a different type won't guarantee you anything.

[JCat]

Maybe a bit off topic, as this is P90 only, but...

I have been chasing a tone for months - it was my friend's 1952 ES-140 with original Gibson P90, that had the sweetest highs. I have an Archtop Tribute ATC175 that had a P90 with Alnico 5s and I found it a bit brittle/thin on the top E string. I concluded it must be the Alnico 5s, so replaced it with a Bare Knuckle Half Note (Alnico 3s), much sweeter/rounder on the high E now. Not quite "the tone" but I'm more than happy with it and it's a fabulous guitar all round - light, resonant, easy to play...

Over the months since I returned my friend's ES-140, I tried a number of 50's ES-125s and one ES-175 that just didn't have it, a '49 ES-150 came close. Then I recently found a 1952 ES-125 (original P90) that had the exact same sweetness and bought it on the spot. Most satisfying sound to my ears of any jazz guitar I have played. Obviously old P90 with the mojo and Alnico 2s, right? No, it seems Gibson used Alnico 5s in the '50s (there's a photo of a catalogue on one of the threads here), or possibly something similar to Alnico 4s (another thread somewhere with a link to a study).

And to buy the ES-125 I had to sell my 2018 ES-330 (MHS P90s with Alnico 2s), that had the same brittle high E which I couldn't tame with higher gauge flats, nylon saddles etc.

So in conclusion, my experience is the magnets may make a difference, but it's far from simple, and changing to a different type won't guarantee you anything.

I love the Jazz tone of a neck P-90 with the tone control rolled back.

Tip: A Dogear P-90 can't be lowered, but could be raised by adding a shim. Regardless, carefully adjust the pole screws for string-to string balance.

[ruger9]

Speaking of guitar construction, it just hit me that you said you're playing a 7-string. Every 7-string I've ever seen had a 24-fret neck. Does yours? If so, I think chasing pickup details is barking up the wrong tree. Because the pickup on a 24-fret neck is shifted almost an inch closer to the bridge than on 20 or 22 fret neck, no matter what kind of pickup you use it's going to sound more scooped/brighter than any flavor of 175-style guitar.

All those tones are great and all of them are archtop tones - it should be possible to get close with a 335, not sure how close...

In this clip it appears like he's using one of the most iconic amps; a Fender 5E3 Deluxe.
When we plug humbuckers into a 5E3 and play on low clean volume, this is typically what it sounds like. With this amp I prefer A5 magnets, not too hot. T-Tops or similar is a good match with a 5E3. Also note the pickup selector in middle position. Also note the white pedal on top of that amp, which most likely is a reverb pedal jumpered into the second channel. Instant Jazz. Good luck.

Agreed! Now that we know what OP is shooting for specifically...

I do think a 335 will do the job. But there's validity in the 24-fret neck comment. And if Stryker is playing with the tone full up, it's the amp more than the pickup generating that tone.

I also think rolling the tone knob down with your current setup could help alot, even if that's not what Stryker does. It's never a one solution formula. Guitar type + pickup + amp + player's touch. Even the PICK can make quite a difference. You'll have to do some experimenting. But if your current guitar is a 335 with a stock Gibson PAF in it, IMHO it'll do the job... you need to look more at amps, or turn your tone control down a bit. Or maybe get an EQ pedal to help your amp sound differently than it was designed to. There's more than one way to get it done. Having a 335 gets you at least halfway there already.

[chris32895]

I'm trying to choose a pickup for my 7 string 335. I play jazz and want a warm dark round sound. I was chatting with a guy at Seymour Duncan and he suggested that having a Seymour Duncan 59 custom made with alnico 2 magnets would give a more spongy treble. It's been commented here that it would provide a more syrupy treble. I know it's hard to describe sounds with words but I don't get a clear picture from the guy at Seymour Duncan and wondered if anybody here actually has experience with comparing the two kinds of magnet. Thanks so much.

Funny that you mention a '59 with an Alnico 2 swap. I had a Telecaster last year that I fitted with a SD '59 because that's what Mike Stern uses and I like his playing. I hated the tone - ice-picky highs and boomy lows - and wanted something warmer. However, I didn't want to spend a ton a new pickup. I fitted it with an Alnico 2 and it was a very nice pickup. Actually, out of all the pickups I've tried (Gibson '57, Ibanez Super 58, ...) the SD '59 w/ an Alnico 2 still stands out to me as my favorite, at least in a Telecaster.

[Jimmy Smith]

voyage, all the clips except for the Rick Stone one sound round and warm but still with some treble harmonic detail. This is exactly the effect of a lower value volume pot, where it doesn't chop off the nice warm harmonics like a tone pot, it just attenuates them. Yes, you can just turn down a regular value volume pot, but if you actually want to be able to use your volume pot as its intended purpose to set the volume instead of only setting it to darken the tone, I'd recommend you get lower value volume pots. 200k if you want it medium warm, and 100k if you want it super warm. The Rick Stone clip sounds like he has the tone turned down. Imo, this is such a no brainer. Pots are like $5.

[Jimmy Smith]

It strikes me as lot warmer than Jimmy's sample, and I got there just by turning the (stock) 250k tone pot down a litlle.

It maybe sounds a little warmer. You're probably using a dynamic mic which makes the sound like 5 times darker than in the room. For like the 3rd time I was using a condenser mic which are bright. I also had the controls full up.

Bear in mind that Jimmy claimed that trial and error in choosing a pickup is pointless and people should just listen to him because he's an expert on the tone of pickup magnets.

When tf did I say that? I never said that. I was simply countering jorge's statement that there's never anything you can do except experiment aimlessly. I never said you can't operate on your own recognizance while respecting guidance.

I got there just by turning the (stock) 250k tone pot down a litlle.

OK, I feel a little less crazy now. That clip you posted would be warm and round on any guitar, more so on a strat (even if it's one with an humbucker) - so your "solution" could be classified as excellent advice for anyone with a strat seeking a warm and round tone.

A lower value volume pot is literally the exact same device to darkening the tone as turning down a regular value volume pot. But my suggestion is bunk while yours is 'excellent advice' lol. You guys are just mad for some reason and have to illogically counter me. The difference with a lower value volume pot is that you can still actually use your volume pot for its intended purpose of setting the volume, rather than always being obligated to set the volume to darken the tone and then set the volume on the amp.

I don't think that sample and that statement support each other very well.

And, yes, the original sample and statement don't match. That has been my entire argument.

Please. You guys are just mad and being ridiculous. 2 other members thought it was pretty warm. For the 3rd time: THE CONTROLS WERE FULL UP. The no load tone wasn't even in the circuit, there was a little amp set close to flat, and I used a bright condenser mic. That obviously demonstrates only using a lower value volume pot gets you a lot of the way there.

[DawgBone]

Even the PICK can make quite a difference. You'll have to do some experimenting. But if your current guitar is a 335 with a stock Gibson PAF in it, IMHO it'll do the job... you need to look more at amps, or turn your tone control down a bit. Or maybe get an EQ pedal to help your amp sound differently than it was designed to. There's more than one way to get it done. Having a 335 gets you at least halfway there already.

Yeah this, the pick, and even what edge of it you hit the strings with. My tone got brighter just going off the back edge of the pick via the reverse/backwards picking I been working on. It was duller/rounder/smoother off the front edge, and not as precise or sharp of an attack.

[Cunamara]

Hey OP,

We are listening to a hi-fi recording, i.e. a virtual representation of reality.
You know there are many ways to record a sound and there are so many parameters involved that have greater influence than pickup magnets.

In this clip it appears like he's using one of the most iconic amps; a Fender 5E3 Deluxe.
When we plug humbuckers into a 5E3 and play on low clean volume, this is typically what it sounds like. With this amp I prefer A5 magnets, not too hot. T-Tops or similar is a good match with a 5E3. Also note the pickup selector in middle position. Also note the white pedal on top of that amp, which most likely is a reverb pedal jumpered into the second channel. Instant Jazz. Good luck.

Blowing up the picture as much as I can, I don't see anything plugged into the white pedal unless the input and outputs are on the backside of it. It looks like he's going into the normal channel of the amp and the microphones are both seriously off-axis, which will darken things a lot. My main amp is a 5E3 and it's not hard to get a tone like this with it. The amp is being pushed enough to get a little hair on the notes and the reverb is most likely being provided by studio processors rather than a pedal. Interesting that the pickup selector is in the middle position, because it doesn't sound to me like that.

We also cannot see the controls of the amp; if he's got the tone full up on the guitar, he might have it full down on the amp. Also, we're probably hearing the signal through the desk and we don't know what EQ the engineer is applying.

[JCat]

Blowing up the picture as much as I can, I don't see anything plugged into the white pedal unless the input and outputs are on the backside of it. It looks like he's going into the normal channel of the amp and the microphones are both seriously off-axis, which will darken things a lot. My main amp is a 5E3 and it's not hard to get a tone like this with it. The amp is being pushed enough to get a little hair on the notes and the reverb is most likely being provided by studio processors rather than a pedal. Interesting that the pickup selector is in the middle position, because it doesn't sound to me like that.

We also cannot see the controls of the amp; if he's got the tone full up on the guitar, he might have it full down on the amp. Also, we're probably hearing the signal through the desk and we don't know what EQ the engineer is applying.

The pedal jacks are top mounted (on the backside in the picture). Jumpering a reverb pedal in the 2nd channel is a very cool trick. You'll get some added bass from the 2nd channel, that could be compensated by turning up reverb tone (depending on pedal).
But your general observation is correct and important: We don't know anything about how the clip was recorded. Maybe the amp is just for show

(My rig: 335 > Deluxe sounds pretty much like that)

[voyage]

I stand corrected on 24 vs 22
Frets. If Stryker’s 347 is unmodified unmodified, they’re most likely Dirty Fingers pickups, which are something like 15k ohm humbuckers with ceramic magnets.

Well that's just my jazz guitars. I think solid body 7 string guitars generally used for rock and roll do all have 24 frets. I have a Schecter Omen and a 2001 Ibanez that both have 24 frets. I guess jazz players don't need that many frets :-).

[John A.]

Well that's just my jazz guitars. I think solid body 7 string guitars generally used for rock and roll do all have 24 frets. I have a Schecter Omen and a 2001 Ibanez that both have 24 frets. I guess jazz players don't need that many frets :-).

I had a 24 fret Les Paul The neck pickup placement was a real negative for me, and 2 extra frets didn't really add any value. It took me a while to come to that understanding, though.

[aquin43]

A lower value volume pot is literally the exact same device to darkening the tone as turning down a regular value volume pot.

Not true. A lower value volume pot is similar but not exactly the same as turning the tone down a little.

[Jimmy Smith]

Lol, reread.

[ruger9]

Yeah this, the pick, and even what edge of it you hit the strings with. My tone got brighter just going off the back edge of the pick via the reverse/backwards picking I been working on. It was duller/rounder/smoother off the front edge, and not as precise or sharp of an attack.

I have learned that more pros use the rounded "shoulder" of the pick than you know. Just in listening to interviews over the years. Using the shoulder instead of the tip is (tonally) like going up a string gauge... or two LOL

[Jimmy Smith]

^ I would do that when I played guitar. Felt more comfortable too.

[John A.]

It maybe sounds a little warmer. You're probably using a dynamic mic which makes the sound like 5 times darker than in the room. For like the 3rd time I was using a condenser mic which are bright.

I just looked at the recording. It's a model of a BF Super Reverb (a bright amp) combined with the cabinet of a SF Twin Reverb (brigther than a stock SR cab] with a model of an MD-421 (a bright dynamic mic). Also, some condensors are brighter than some dynamics, but condensors are not inherently brighter than dynamics. It depends on which mics you're comparing.

I also had the controls full up.

Yes you did. But your point was that the sample was warm and round, not that it would be if the tone control was turned down and recorded with a different mic. I don't find it to be warm and round, but this is a subjective point. So that people can understand my sense of "bright" I posted an example of what I perceive to be a warm strat sound, which I think is warmer than the sample you posted. So if someone were to ask me "how should I get a tone that warm? Should I turn down the tone control, or should I install a humucker and change the pot?" I'd say "do what you like, but turning down the tone control works fine for me.

When tf did I say that? I never said that. I was simply countering jorge's statement that there's never anything you can do except experiment aimlessly. I never said you can't operate on your own recognizance while respecting guidance.

You said "You can quit being obstinate [about the value of trial and error] and listen to people who effing know what they're talking about because they teched heavily for years! [in context, clearly seemingly referring to yourself]". I'm happy to rely on people who effing know what they're talking about. The juxtaposition of what strikes me as a grandiose statement about your abilities and a sample that strikes as contradicting your description of it doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence that you are one of those people. But others are free to disagree.

A lower value volume pot is literally the exact same device to darkening the tone as turning down a regular value volume pot. But my suggestion is bunk while yours is 'excellent advice' lol. You guys are just mad for some reason and have to illogically counter me. The difference with a lower value volume pot is that you can still actually use your volume pot for its intended purpose of setting the volume, rather than always being obligated to set the volume to darken the tone and then set the volume on the amp.

I'm fine with the way the stock controls on my guitars work. To the extent that lowering the volume does darken the tone, that has never really bothered me (and sometimes is useful).

Please. You guys are just mad and being ridiculous.

LOL, like I could get mad over a discussion like this.

2 other members thought it was pretty warm.

<Shrug> OK, so they do.

For the 3rd time: THE CONTROLS WERE FULL UP.

Not relevant to the point under discussion which is "I [jimmy] am an effing expert on what constitutes warm and round. Here is an example."

The no load tone wasn't even in the circuit, there was a little amp set close to flat, and I used a bright condenser mic. That obviously demonstrates only using a lower value volume pot gets you a lot of the way there.

It demonstrates nothing because you didn't give us a comparison to the same guitar, amp, and pickup with a different value pot. All I can say is that to my ears, for a humbucker your sample is not a very warm and round tone.

[voyage]

Thanks. What do you mean by jumpered into the second channel?

[voyage]

Yeah, it's definitely a crap shoot and with custom pickups you can't swap them back for something else with Seymour Duncan.

[JCat]

Thanks. What do you mean by jumpered into the second channel?

The 5E3 Deluxe got 2 channels and each channel got 2 inputs, so in total 4 input jacks.
"Jumpering" means that we connect the two channels using an instrument cable in front, typically a patch cable plugged between the 2nd jack of the 1st channel > 1st jack of the 2nd channel. Then you plug your guitar into the 1st jack of the 1st channel and are good to go; now you can blend the volume of the respective channel to taste. This works for most old 4-hole amps, like Fender Tweeds and Marshalls.

Now, if you replace the jumper patch cable with a reverb pedal, you get an old school "FX loop". Some reverb pedals are designed for this purpose.

[Jimmy Smith]

Ok John A. Have fun with your point that when I suggest using resistance to darken rather than capacitance it's wrong, but when you suggest it it's right. It makes sense in your head so that's all that counts!

Yeah, it's definitely a crap shoot and with custom pickups you can't swap them back for something else with Seymour Duncan.

That's why it makes sense to do mag swaps yourself.

[voyage]

Thanks. What is formvar and vintage wind? Can Seymour Duncan do that? Will they know what it means? Which one is the softer more syrupy spongy sound vintage or hot wind?

None of those pickups you mentioned are available in seven seven string