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You can sometimes hear a slight difference between capacitors, but it's because they have slightly different values. No two capacitors of the same nominal value will have exactly the same capacitance. They all vary to some extent. Those with lower tolerances will vary less than those with higher. Some capacitors may not even be within tolerance. This is an electrical property, and has nothing at all to do with the material they're made from. Believing that the material is what causes the slight difference in sound, if any exists, is religion, which is faith, the belief in something without any actual evidence. If PIO capacitors is part of your religion, then believe what you will. I don't have a problem with anyone's religion, but I do have a problem if they try to impose it on others.
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03-28-2024 11:54 AM
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^ No, hypothesizing that cap material could affect the tone, and then verifying it with observation over a period of several years and countless tests doesn't have anything to do with science lol. You telling me this is false and that I can't hear is imposing your blind views on me.
Apparently not. You get slight differences in the quality of the tone related to the materials of the cap. It's not only the values. That would be like if you said the diameter and shape of the string is the only thing that matters in tone for an electric guitar string, the materials make no difference! It's electromagnetism!
Originally Posted by rahsaan
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You are correct about strings, but magnetic circuits and electronic circuits compare like apples and rocks. Very different principals. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Well then have fun coming to your conclusions hypothetically rather than empirically. :P
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Could be done empirically with a recording oscilloscope and a robot strummed and fretted guitar. Probably has been done but not going to go look for it. Saying you can hear the cap type in a guitar roll off circuit is like saying you can hear the wire and resistors. You can't because of the way it works. And it's not hypothetical. The answer to 'what is the frequency variation from caps of the same value and tolerance in this circuit and is that in a range the human ear can distinguish' is an equation. Variation will be this much (based on tolerance because the circuit doesn't care what kind of cap it is).. human ear can hear this much.. and it won't even be within orders of magnitude. That's all there is. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
And 'empirical' means data.. metrics that can be seen and reviewed hopefully with all the variable accounted for. 'Empirical' is, by it's very definition, not someone's opinion. Even if they claim it to be based on vast experience and amazing insights. Whatever variation you hear or you think you hear, isn't the cap.
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You should get tested for irony deficiency. You're happy to demand that everyone else accept your blind views without demur. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Carry on with your subjectivism masquerading as empiricism. It's the values of the caps, not the construction. That's what's empirical, not the psychoacoustics of subjective comparisons. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I particularly love people spending bucks for a PIO cap that isn't even really a PIO cap- just a wrapper over a modern cap- and thinking they're getting "the mojo" out of it. Real PIO caps are unstable and drift quickly, which changes the value of the cap. A ceramic disc cap of the same value as the drifted PIO cap would have the same effect on tone.
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I like how you guys base your entire argument on hypothesis and then call me subjective. Lol! Kind of a joke. You don't get to tell me what I can and can't hear. And not only for one test, over the course of years of teching. I know the characteristic tone of pio and orange drop caps, across any value. Variation has nothing to do with it. And Spook, you might want to read the dictionary, empirical's literal definition is experience and observation, it doesn't require lab research. What do you expect from people who are emotionally invested in spinning the truth.
empirical definition - Google Search
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I know about resistance, capacitance and inductance. Is there some other measurable electrical property that can affect sound?
Of course, all three of these might, conceivably, be dependent on amplitude, frequency and transients, or something.
If you wired a varitone with different types of capacitors with the same measurements -- and they sounded different -- what could cause that?
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Please 'splain me the physics of how the material a capacitor is made of influences the tone.
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Go to the world of electrical engineering and material science and you get an answer. Go to the world of music marketing and the anecdotal experiences of individuals you may get another. Pretty clear which is right and I wouldn't care about it except for some poor sap spending a lot of money on a special component because someone wanted to make a buck. Even though it's clearly BS. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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A credible explanation requires a theory of how the effect is generated, and a testable and verifiable experimental method to prove or disprove it. This exists, and is widely accepted, for capacitor values, but I've never seen anything like it for materials.
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By definition, Jimmy, what you hear is subjective not objective. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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^ Lol! 'By definition?' I guess you should try reading the dictionary too:
Subjective most commonly means based on the personal perspective or preferences of a person—the subject who's observing something. In contrast, objective most commonly means not influenced by or based on a personal viewpoint—based on the analysis of an object of observation only.
Your viewpoint is subjective. It is an illogical hypothesis, based on your personal perspective, that has nothing to do with real world observations.
My stance is objective. It is based on the analysis of the object of observation only.
subjective definition - Google Search
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Why couldn't the materials a signal is passing through affect it in a holistic way? That's absurd to think that's not possible. Originally Posted by sgosnell
From the chat bot:
Capacitors are components commonly used in audio circuits for various purposes, including tone shaping in guitars and amplifiers. The capacitance value determines the frequency response of the circuit, affecting aspects of the tone such as brightness and bass response. However, some argue that the material used in capacitors can also impact the sound due to factors like dielectric absorption, parasitic resistance, and inductance.
Different capacitor materials, such as ceramic, polyester film, polypropylene film, aluminum electrolytic, tantalum, and others, have unique electrical properties that may subtly affect the performance of the circuit. For instance, some materials may introduce distortion or coloration to the signal, while others may provide cleaner or more transparent sound reproduction.
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A great thread like this, with adequate counselloring, has me rooting for both sides of the argument.
Glad I'm not on the jury!
Each side has its point.
Why do amp builders/tweakers opt for one type of cap over another??? It's not just economics. I've read the posts.
I have no evidence that there are UFO's, but have talked to enough people who back up the claims. And I have had an experience/sighting, all without a documented claim. But a bunch of other people saw the same thing. Others have said that this was a common occurrence with those same descriptions.
I myself get my rounder "jazz" tone by turning my guitar's volume pot down. Not my tone pot - that just dulls the whole thing. And I hate "dull". To my ears!
Turning down the volume pot reduces volume, and TOP end. But I keep the presence and growl (dynamics)
Turning down the TONE just washes all the good stuff away. Yes, I could tweak and change the caps' values....but I do have better things to do, like practicing, arranging, vocal exercising. The volume pot is one of my best friends ....for tone.
Each of us has our own way, our own aesthetic, and beliefs. Argue what you will, but I agree with both sides. But Jimmy Smith stands closest to my own feeling for "the great debate". (I didn't want to take a side)
But here we go
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Chatbot? LOL. I don't know of any repeatable blindfold tests that chatbot has done. It's not an authority on anything. It just repeats what it finds on websites, which are themselves unreliable.
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Extraordinary claims.
With regard to hearing, it has been shown repeatedly that pretty well all of the subjective qualities of a sound are also affected by inputs from the other senses as well as the individual's current knowledge and expectations.
The pickup output is just an electrical signal and it can be shown both theoretically and experimentally that the modifications to this signal produced by different capacitor dielectrics working at the voltages found in guitar pickups are orders of magnitude smaller than the observed resolution of the human ear. This resolution has been tested repeatedly over many years.
What weight, then, would one give to a claim to be able to hear these signal modifications, not just in a controlled environment but clearly and generally?
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Jimmy might be right because alien spaceships might have visited Earth? Um …
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So what type of capacitors do you use in your guitars? Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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^ I just stick with the 2 most common types of quality materials, the orange drops or pio. The orange drops to me sound fatter and more supple if you want a fat tone. Pio sounds more vintage, silky, creamy, without a present low end fatness. They only cost a few bucks.
As far as values, I find 22nf is perfect if you want it bassy, going higher is unnecessary imo. If you want it brighter, you can go lower. 18 is a great value for still bassy and creamy, 15 and 10 sound middy, and 6.8 is a cool value because it's the lowest value that still gives you some fatness when turned down while being kind of light. Below that only cut highs.
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I teched heavily for 5 years where I was always wiring up loaded pickguards or changing controls. The 1st time I tried an orange drop cap after only using ceramics, I was taken aback at the characteristic tone. Since then, when trying different values of pio or orange drop caps I always noticed their characteristic tone stayed the same. For example, I tried a pio cap on my bass and it didn't sound right to me because I wanted the fatness of the orange drop. Originally Posted by aquin43
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Ceramic radial or polypropylene capacitors cost pennies each (when purchased in quanity).
When somebody spends 10s of dollars or even more on something they should be paying pennies for, there is a need to rationalize the purchase.
Some capacitors are more expensive (high break down voltage, MilSpec components, electrolytic...) but they are not relevant to guitars. (But can be for amplifiers.)
I don't expect to change any minds, it is just a slow morning.
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Extraordinary claims abound. Eric Johnson has claimed for years to be able to hear differences among brands of batteries in his effects pedals. When asked specifically about this in an inerview in a magazine years ago (Guitarist?), I think he said that he prefers the sound of lower voltage from batteries that are partially discharged, and that Duracells hold his prefered charge level longer so he only uses them. Many big name guitarists have used Variacs and similar variable transformers to reduce the voltage to their amps for a "brown sound". A few use lab quality regulators because they believe they can hear the normal fluctuations in line voltage. And, of course, there are those who believe they can hear differences in brands and types of capacitors, resistors, wires etc. Originally Posted by aquin43
I've always wanted to ask these savants to prove it by taking "blindfold" tests to see if they could accurately and consistently hear and identify what they claim to be hearing among random groups of masked devices. This doesn't seem like such a big ask, but I've never seen published results of such testing.
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I've worn a lot of hats in my professional life (retired now), diagnostic medicine, medical research, engineering, audio component design and build. There's no bridging this divide in my experience; either you hear a difference between (your component here) or you don't. Enthusiasts will spend money as they see fit and I don't see a problem there. If guitar players see value in a multi thousand dollar instrument that's their own value scale. Changing a capacitor in said instrument that ranges from pennies to hundreds is hardly out of line with that value scale. A couple of points though. A blind identification test is not the same, nor a valid test of, a claim to hear differences between anything. Secondly, the idea that we can measure 'everything' that we hear cannot be proven, only surmised from observation. For example, let's say we run a signal through a cap testing bench circuit, the oscilloscope shows a slight difference between two devices at a specific frequency but at levels well below what's considered human hearing threshold. Is this THE difference being heard? Can it be proven one way or the other? (Spoiler alert, no ) Thats the science. In examples like this we really fall back to people's subjective experience. The idea of cognitive bias cuts both ways, so contributes little to the discussion in my view.
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I think it's important to keep in mind that in an electric guitar circuit, you don't hear the portion of the signal that passes through the tone cap; you hear the part that bypasses the cap. So the claim that the material used in a cap affects the signal is hard to support absent a well formed theory of action explaining how and well controlled experiments demonstrating the effect. "I swear I can hear the differences" is not that.
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