-
I think that there's really no obligation to explain a subjective impression. Hearing a difference isn't a science experiment, it's people sharing their experience. Most wouldn't know how a cap behaves in bypass or not. At least that's been my experience
-
04-01-2024 01:34 PM
-
The heard signal bypassing the cancelled portion sent to ground makes no difference. Different materials can still filter differently.
My tests were not done in a lab, but they were reasonably scientific. Trying different caps over the course of several years. Sometimes spending time with them, sometimes a/b-ing them in a varitone. All this without a previous bias either way.
I started just using the cheap ceramics because I thought why would I spend more. Then eventually thought what the hell I'll try supposed quality materials and was taken aback.
I confirmed the differences in tone weren't the result of value variances because I learned the characteristic tone of each material regarless of the value. It stayed the same every time - whether it was a 22nf or a 6.8.
-
This mirrors my experience with phono stage circuitry. Every cap has a signature sound. Sometimes preferable isn't expensive but often it's more than bog standard price.
-
Originally Posted by Old Nick
"I heard X because Y": where Y is a controversial hypothesis is a bit more of a problem.
-
Originally Posted by John A.
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
-
GP reviewed a power cable. The one that goes from the wall to the back of an amp.
This power cable was sold at a high price with a story. I don't recall the details any more, but it was something special about how the metal of this cable allowed the electrons to flow.
My reaction was to think, even if it's true, which I doubted, why do I want a perfect reproduction of the electricity at my wall outlet? It's the product of several hundred miles of wiring that, presumably, doesn't have the special characteristic of this expensive cable. And, it's affected by everything else that's connected to the power grid, at some level.
Anyway, I concluded the product was ridiculous in concept and, very likely a complete scam. But, some people apparently swore the amp sounded better.
And, then there was the report of a Hi Fi magazine blindfold speaker cable test and the experts couldn't tell that one of the choices was a bunch of ordinary wire coat hangers twisted together. Later, iirc, one of the experts extolled the virtues of the coat hangers as conductors to explain the result without trashing the boutique wires (at high prices). Is that story apocryphal?
OTOH, some things really do make an appreciable difference and some people can hear things others can't. I know that from my own audiogram.
One final point. Although the tone cap is connected to ground and not the output jack, you can certainly hear it by virtue of what it subtracts from the main signal path. That's referring to conventional wiring and any cap. So, if the caps really had some property that could make an audible difference, it could, conceivably, make that difference by subtracting something different than another cap. At a minimum, the basic capacitance value works like that.
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
Fun reading this thread! I have to quote John A (his signature) here: "You're never more than a half step away from the right note."
I suspect that's where we all are on this topic! We're not hearing whatever signal is filtered out - we hear what's left.
Guitar input cable arguments seem to have faded into history, but they were the same! "Wire is wire! No, it's not."
I have great sounding cables and not so great sounding cables. I do hear the difference. Of course, the best sounding is the most expensive one. But that cable, I surmise, filters out LESS than the others (capacitor parallel ?) I get MORE tone with it. Same thing with good quality shorter cables.
Anyway, I stray, but I used to argue with those who didn't hear a difference, that if you don't care, you don't have to. Maybe you can't hear the difference, and maybe you just don't care to.
My experience. I might have a link to a guy who did a video with several tone caps on a switchable platform, from years ago. I wonder if it's still on YT?
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
-
Originally Posted by John A.
-
Here's a link to the Tone Cap experiments I saw on YT, from 2010:
The guy has 4 videos. You may find this interesting, maybe not. In view of the points made in this thread, I don't think these videos are as scientifically based as they could be. I give the guy credit though for trying to illuminate. And I did hear some variations in the caps used.
What stands out though, is the mildly distorted sound of his amp, and some volume drops from some of the varying caps used. A clean sounding amp would be less distracting for me, maybe not for the shredders out there ???
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
-
Not hard. Send a recorded guitar signal (recorded for consistency) through several different tone circuits using different caps. Better yet use a frequency generator. Record the result with a recording oscilloscope. Overlay the signals. See if any difference could be audible based on relative amplitude and frequency.
Of course.. you won't see that. Engineers already know the answer and aren't going to take the trouble. So instead we get the clueless and/or mercenary videos doing 'hear the difference'. Which you can't using youtube tech anyway.
-
Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
Last edited by John A.; 04-02-2024 at 10:16 AM.
-
The hard part of the experiment is finding caps with identical values. Some capacitors can have a tolerance of 20%. That's a lot, and thus two capacitors could be as much as 40% different in capacitance and still be within tolerance. And how do you know all the capacitors you have are actually within tolerance? You have to check the actual capacitance, and match capacitors. Without knowing the actual values, it's not possible to say with any certainty what is causing any differences you may hear. It's more likely to be differences in capacitance than different materials, but without knowing the actual capacitance, you can't say for sure. Some capacitors have a tolerance of 0.1%, and would probably be a better subject for study, if you can find them. But you still need to know that they're within tolerance. It's the same for resistors, and especially variable resistors, commonly called pots, short for potentiometer. Sticking two random components in a circuit and swearing that any difference you hear is caused by the one thing you want it to be isn't a valid method. You have to consider all possible causes, perhaps some you don't think possible, and come up with a plausible explanation with a logical foundation. If you want others to believe your theory, you have to provide a reasonable explanation that is repeatable, and an experimental method to prove or disprove it. That's how science works. It is not, however, how woo works. Thus woo is a much more popular religion. No proof required, just "I believe it and therefore it must be true".
-
I like whatever they have out there right now it's Orange Drops ...... Also if you like more control try this out I was reluctant to try this but I finally did....
.0033uf Capacitor yeah it's pretty dang small but it's very pleasant and you have to stay with it a little while but it will give you some great sound with it instead of no sound on the dial lol. There is a ton of room when adjusting the tone control that I use this in just about every guitar I have now.........
-
I have no tone control on the guitar I play most, and on the others I just leave it wide open. To each his own.
-
Chopping off the nice treble harmonics with the tone knob and leaving the tone dull below is usually not desirable. So using the volume or a lower value volume pot to darken is essential for me. Although, some tone knob workage is useful to me as long as I pick the right value cap for the job. 22nf is plenty for bassy, 18 is also really cool for bassy but light and creamy. joebonnie mentioned 3.3nf, I like 6.8 for a light sound.
Going to taper off on the arguing. We reached the point where nothing is going to be proven. I asked the bot if there were oscilloscope measurements of different cap materials sounding different with the same capacitance reading, but he said he couldn't access that. I searched google and didn't really find anything. I have a feeling that there would be, but I don't have access to that proof. I'm not going to spend $$ and time to do the test myself so I can argue on the forum. :P
-
Yeah the .0068uf works well too you get a little more I think most would like the .0047uf that really jams I got into the .0033uf because I can get like 20 different sounds in the mellow area as I turn down the tone little at a time..........
-
Originally Posted by sgosnell
-
Boy, I’m glad I missed this.
I’m firmly in the value camp, but if you really want to know what works best for you on a particular guitar, on a particular pickup, buy a bunch of different cap types and values. Measure the real value. Build them into a decade box. Connect the decade box to your tone control. Spend a lot of time deciding which one you like best. Solder that one in.
Remember that vintage PIO caps may have been sitting on a shelf for a few decades. Not necessarily a good thing.
-
Originally Posted by joebonni
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That's an interesting idea. If you read it in a newspaper then it's true. If you read it on the internet then it's true. Evolving to.. it's not true if an AI doesn't say it's true.Last edited by voyage; 04-25-2024 at 04:11 PM.
-
Of all the myriad variables that goes into the tone of a guitar note - guitar, pickups, strings, pots, amps, cables, pick attack, finger vibrato, to name a few - the construction of a capacitor seems a pretty insignificant hill to die on for all the internet nerd warriors out there.
Elias Prinz -- young talent from Munich
Yesterday, 10:24 PM in The Players