.047 oil and paper vs bumblebee caps

[Old Nick]

I think that there's really no obligation to explain a subjective impression. Hearing a difference isn't a science experiment, it's people sharing their experience. Most wouldn't know how a cap behaves in bypass or not. At least that's been my experience

[Jimmy Smith]

The heard signal bypassing the cancelled portion sent to ground makes no difference. Different materials can still filter differently.

My tests were not done in a lab, but they were reasonably scientific. Trying different caps over the course of several years. Sometimes spending time with them, sometimes a/b-ing them in a varitone. All this without a previous bias either way.

I started just using the cheap ceramics because I thought why would I spend more. Then eventually thought what the hell I'll try supposed quality materials and was taken aback.

I confirmed the differences in tone weren't the result of value variances because I learned the characteristic tone of each material regarless of the value. It stayed the same every time - whether it was a 22nf or a 6.8.

[Old Nick]

This mirrors my experience with phono stage circuitry. Every cap has a signature sound. Sometimes preferable isn't expensive but often it's more than bog standard price.

[John A.]

I think that there's really no obligation to explain a subjective impression. Hearing a difference isn't a science experiment, it's people sharing their experience. Most wouldn't know how a cap behaves in bypass or not. At least that's been my experience

"I heard X": No problem. Maybe you heard something.
"I heard X because Y": where Y is a controversial hypothesis is a bit more of a problem.

[Old Nick]

"I heard X": No problem. Maybe you heard something.
"I heard X because Y": where Y is a controversial hypothesis is a bit more of a problem.

No argument

[John A.]

The heard signal bypassing the cancelled portion sent to ground makes no difference. Different materials can still filter differently

So you say, but that's not the prevailing view in the relevant science and engineering disciplines. I think most reasonable readers would say that puts the onus on you to back the claim with robust evidence.

My tests were not done in a lab, but they were reasonably scientific. Trying different caps over the course of several years. Sometimes spending time with them, sometimes a/b-ing them in a varitone. All this without a previous bias either way.

I started just using the cheap ceramics because I thought why would I spend more. Then eventually thought what the hell I'll try supposed quality materials and was taken aback.

I confirmed the differences in tone weren't the result of value variances because I learned the characteristic tone of each material regarless of the value. It stayed the same every time - whether it was a 22nf or a 6.8.

This is not "reasonably scientific" because it's uncontrolled, unblinded, and produced no data other than your claimed perception. That subjective experience might be a reasonable motive to construct a controlled, blinded, and reproducible experiment, and if you do that and it demonstrates the effect you claim to perceive I'll be impressed. But until then, I'm skeptical of both the perception and the theory.

[rpjazzguitar]

GP reviewed a power cable. The one that goes from the wall to the back of an amp.

This power cable was sold at a high price with a story. I don't recall the details any more, but it was something special about how the metal of this cable allowed the electrons to flow.

My reaction was to think, even if it's true, which I doubted, why do I want a perfect reproduction of the electricity at my wall outlet? It's the product of several hundred miles of wiring that, presumably, doesn't have the special characteristic of this expensive cable. And, it's affected by everything else that's connected to the power grid, at some level.

Anyway, I concluded the product was ridiculous in concept and, very likely a complete scam. But, some people apparently swore the amp sounded better.

And, then there was the report of a Hi Fi magazine blindfold speaker cable test and the experts couldn't tell that one of the choices was a bunch of ordinary wire coat hangers twisted together. Later, iirc, one of the experts extolled the virtues of the coat hangers as conductors to explain the result without trashing the boutique wires (at high prices). Is that story apocryphal?

OTOH, some things really do make an appreciable difference and some people can hear things others can't. I know that from my own audiogram.

One final point. Although the tone cap is connected to ground and not the output jack, you can certainly hear it by virtue of what it subtracts from the main signal path. That's referring to conventional wiring and any cap. So, if the caps really had some property that could make an audible difference, it could, conceivably, make that difference by subtracting something different than another cap. At a minimum, the basic capacitance value works like that.

[John A.]

GP reviewed a power cable. The one that goes from the wall to the back of an amp.

This power cable was sold at a high price with a story. I don't recall the details any more, but it was something special about how the metal of this cable allowed the electrons to flow.

My reaction was to think, even if it's true, which I doubted, why do I want a perfect reproduction of the electricity at my wall outlet? It's the product of several hundred miles of wiring that, presumably, doesn't have the special characteristic of this expensive cable. And, it's affected by everything else that's connected to the power grid, at some level.

Anyway, I concluded the product was ridiculous in concept and, very likely a complete scam. But, some people apparently swore the amp sounded better.

And, then there was the report of a Hi Fi magazine blindfold speaker cable test and the experts couldn't tell that one of the choices was a bunch of ordinary wire coat hangers twisted together. Later, iirc, one of the experts extolled the virtues of the coat hangers as conductors to explain the result without trashing the boutique wires (at high prices). Is that story apocryphal?

OTOH, some things really do make an appreciable difference and some people can hear things others can't. I know that from my own audiogram.

One final point. Although the tone cap is connected to ground and not the output jack, you can certainly hear it by virtue of what it subtracts from the main signal path. That's referring to conventional wiring and any cap. So, if the caps really had some property that could make an audible difference, it could, conceivably, make that difference by subtracting something different than another cap. At a minimum, the basic capacitance value works like that.

It could make a difference in that fashion, and if so it would be measurable, and those measurements could be correlated to human perception. Anybody got a link to a journal article that does that?

[Jimmy Mack]

Fun reading this thread! I have to quote John A (his signature) here: "You're never more than a half step away from the right note."

I suspect that's where we all are on this topic! We're not hearing whatever signal is filtered out - we hear what's left.

Guitar input cable arguments seem to have faded into history, but they were the same! "Wire is wire! No, it's not."

I have great sounding cables and not so great sounding cables. I do hear the difference. Of course, the best sounding is the most expensive one. But that cable, I surmise, filters out LESS than the others (capacitor parallel ?) I get MORE tone with it. Same thing with good quality shorter cables.

Anyway, I stray, but I used to argue with those who didn't hear a difference, that if you don't care, you don't have to. Maybe you can't hear the difference, and maybe you just don't care to.

My experience. I might have a link to a guy who did a video with several tone caps on a switchable platform, from years ago. I wonder if it's still on YT?

[John A.]

... I might have a link to a guy who did a video with several tone caps on a switchable platform, from years ago. I wonder if it's still on YT?

I've seen a few of those, and they all wind up concluding it makes no difference what kind of cap you use. To be fair, there are probably others that reach the opposite conclusion, but I haven't stumbled on those.

[SoftwareGuy]

This is not "reasonably scientific" because it's uncontrolled, unblinded, and produced no data other than your claimed perception. That subjective experience might be a reasonable motive to construct a controlled, blinded, and reproducible experiment, and if you do that and it demonstrates the effect you claim to perceive I'll be impressed. But until then, I'm skeptical of both the perception and the theory.

My thoughts exactly. I wasn't going to bother to reply to the comment about reasonable science, because I suspect that it will do no good. But since you said it, I have to agree.

[Jimmy Mack]

Here's a link to the Tone Cap experiments I saw on YT, from 2010:

The guy has 4 videos. You may find this interesting, maybe not. In view of the points made in this thread, I don't think these videos are as scientifically based as they could be. I give the guy credit though for trying to illuminate. And I did hear some variations in the caps used.

What stands out though, is the mildly distorted sound of his amp, and some volume drops from some of the varying caps used. A clean sounding amp would be less distracting for me, maybe not for the shredders out there ???

[Hep To The Jive]

Here's a link to the Tone Cap experiments I saw on YT, from 2010:

The guy has 4 videos. You may find this interesting, maybe not. In view of the points made in this thread, I don't think these videos are as scientifically based as they could be. I give the guy credit though for trying to illuminate. And I did hear some variations in the caps used.

What stands out though, is the mildly distorted sound of his amp, and some volume drops from some of the varying caps used. A clean sounding amp would be less distracting for me, maybe not for the shredders out there ???

I don't hear any difference whatsoever, it's just nuts. Better yet get rid of tone controls altogether, you get a better tone and you can control it still with turning the volume down. Any humbucker equipped guitar can give you an instant jazz tone, and if you really want a dark lifeless one just turn off the treble on your amp. What's the big deal?

[Spook410]

Not hard. Send a recorded guitar signal (recorded for consistency) through several different tone circuits using different caps. Better yet use a frequency generator. Record the result with a recording oscilloscope. Overlay the signals. See if any difference could be audible based on relative amplitude and frequency.

Of course.. you won't see that. Engineers already know the answer and aren't going to take the trouble. So instead we get the clueless and/or mercenary videos doing 'hear the difference'. Which you can't using youtube tech anyway.

[John A.]

Here's a link to the Tone Cap experiments I saw on YT, from 2010:

The guy has 4 videos. You may find this interesting, maybe not. In view of the points made in this thread, I don't think these videos are as scientifically based as they could be. I give the guy credit though for trying to illuminate. And I did hear some variations in the caps used.

What stands out though, is the mildly distorted sound of his amp, and some volume drops from some of the varying caps used. A clean sounding amp would be less distracting for me, maybe not for the shredders out there ???

Impossible to tell whether the volume changes are from his playing or signal processing, or inconsistencies in how he wired the capacitors (all of which are more plausible than the caps themselves causing volume variance). Plus, he measures the capacitance, and there's a range of values. Also, I’m pretty sure I hear automatic level control/compression. I don’t hear tone differences. But it’s unblinded, so useless.

[sgosnell]

The hard part of the experiment is finding caps with identical values. Some capacitors can have a tolerance of 20%. That's a lot, and thus two capacitors could be as much as 40% different in capacitance and still be within tolerance. And how do you know all the capacitors you have are actually within tolerance? You have to check the actual capacitance, and match capacitors. Without knowing the actual values, it's not possible to say with any certainty what is causing any differences you may hear. It's more likely to be differences in capacitance than different materials, but without knowing the actual capacitance, you can't say for sure. Some capacitors have a tolerance of 0.1%, and would probably be a better subject for study, if you can find them. But you still need to know that they're within tolerance. It's the same for resistors, and especially variable resistors, commonly called pots, short for potentiometer. Sticking two random components in a circuit and swearing that any difference you hear is caused by the one thing you want it to be isn't a valid method. You have to consider all possible causes, perhaps some you don't think possible, and come up with a plausible explanation with a logical foundation. If you want others to believe your theory, you have to provide a reasonable explanation that is repeatable, and an experimental method to prove or disprove it. That's how science works. It is not, however, how woo works. Thus woo is a much more popular religion. No proof required, just "I believe it and therefore it must be true".

[joebonni]

I like whatever they have out there right now it's Orange Drops ...... Also if you like more control try this out I was reluctant to try this but I finally did....

.0033uf Capacitor yeah it's pretty dang small but it's very pleasant and you have to stay with it a little while but it will give you some great sound with it instead of no sound on the dial lol. There is a ton of room when adjusting the tone control that I use this in just about every guitar I have now.........

[sgosnell]

I have no tone control on the guitar I play most, and on the others I just leave it wide open. To each his own.

[Jimmy Smith]

Chopping off the nice treble harmonics with the tone knob and leaving the tone dull below is usually not desirable. So using the volume or a lower value volume pot to darken is essential for me. Although, some tone knob workage is useful to me as long as I pick the right value cap for the job. 22nf is plenty for bassy, 18 is also really cool for bassy but light and creamy. joebonnie mentioned 3.3nf, I like 6.8 for a light sound.

Going to taper off on the arguing. We reached the point where nothing is going to be proven. I asked the bot if there were oscilloscope measurements of different cap materials sounding different with the same capacitance reading, but he said he couldn't access that. I searched google and didn't really find anything. I have a feeling that there would be, but I don't have access to that proof. I'm not going to spend $$ and time to do the test myself so I can argue on the forum. :P

[joebonni]

Yeah the .0068uf works well too you get a little more I think most would like the .0047uf that really jams I got into the .0033uf because I can get like 20 different sounds in the mellow area as I turn down the tone little at a time..........

[jorgemg1984]

I have no tone control on the guitar I play most, and on the others I just leave it wide open. To each his own.

I do the same, but I use external eqs.

[stevo58]

Boy, I’m glad I missed this.

I’m firmly in the value camp, but if you really want to know what works best for you on a particular guitar, on a particular pickup, buy a bunch of different cap types and values. Measure the real value. Build them into a decade box. Connect the decade box to your tone control. Spend a lot of time deciding which one you like best. Solder that one in.

Remember that vintage PIO caps may have been sitting on a shelf for a few decades. Not necessarily a good thing.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Yeah the .0068uf works well too you get a little more I think most would like the .0047uf that really jams I got into the .0033uf because I can get like 20 different sounds in the mellow area as I turn down the tone little at a time..........

Do you mean 0.0xx uF? I don't think there'd be much effect from a 0.0033 / 47 / 68. The L-C resonant frequency for a 0.0047 uF cap and a 4 Henry inductor (typical for a humbucker) is about 4 times higher than the peak for a 0.047 uF cap and a 4 H inductance. Although the cable capacitance and the values of the pots in the guitar wil affect this to some degree, the principle is the same. A cap with two zeros between the decimal point and the first digit will only bleed off frequencies at and above the highest range of a guitar amp speaker. I've never seen a tone cap used that was 0.00xx uF - they're all 0.0xx or even 0.xx .

[voyage]

Chatgpt thinks there would be a difference in sound. It's the future. It doesn't matter if it's right.

ChatGTP thinks my Honda xr650r has 42 horsepower. It has 61. I asked several times.
That's an interesting idea. If you read it in a newspaper then it's true. If you read it on the internet then it's true. Evolving to.. it's not true if an AI doesn't say it's true.

[DRS]

Of all the myriad variables that goes into the tone of a guitar note - guitar, pickups, strings, pots, amps, cables, pick attack, finger vibrato, to name a few - the construction of a capacitor seems a pretty insignificant hill to die on for all the internet nerd warriors out there.