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The action on my ‘23 Ibanez GB10 is creeping up all by itself. The instrument has been set up very well when I got it and it played effortlessly. Over the last week or so, I noticed that I have to work harder and that I stumble in some passages. I measured the string height and it’s close to twice what it was (it was quite low). Might have something to do with the dry spell we had here after months of rain, with really dry air coming in. I humidified the room, let’s see.
PS simply lowering the action isn’t possible because the bridge was all the way down already. I’d have to shave the bridge down. The action was so low that I never considered having to lower it further.
PS2 My ‘37 L7 is doing the opposite, its action went down the last week and I had to raise it. It went down by about the same amount as the GB10 went up.
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03-11-2024 02:01 AM
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I suggest getting a hygrometer to measure the humidity levels where the guitar is stored and keep the levels relatively consistent. You obviously want to avoid big swings in humidity which is a big cause of your issues.
The old rule of thumb to keep your equipment in an environment that you find comfortable applies.
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A "setup" is a temporary state of equilibrium that is bound to change.
Setup parameters are gradually drifting, action goes up...or down...even in a climate controlled environment.
The guitar is under pressure of high string tension, counterbalanced by features like a truss rod, an arched top, a neck set angle etc.
The full effect of a setup change is not immediate. The guitar is adapting to its new state of equilibrium during the course of several days.
With knowledge and experience we can adjust a guitar in a way that makes it possible to better predict what it's next adjustment is going to be like. We don't know when it's due for adjustment next time, we just know time will come.
Setup is an art that takes years to master and in the process we learn things about instrument building, maintenance and repair.
Some facts:
Action is a combination of several parameters, including but not limited to neck relief and bridge height. These are interdependent parameters that cannot be adjusted in isolation.
It's possible to use a ruler and arrive at some predetermined setup measurements that at the same time render the guitar unstable. A complete setup involves more steps than what's included in the common beginner guides found on the internet.
Storage is of critical importance, where and how the guitar is kept while waiting for you to play it.
A string set typically lasts much longer than the average recommended replacement cycle. It should be emphasized that replacing strings may or may not involve adjustment of setup parameters and that it's possible that you like to readjust the guitar but keep the strings.
Some deformation is elastic (meaning the component returns to its former state when pressure is removed). But sometimes deformation could be permanent, in which case the guitar may be in need of repair (e.g a neck reset, twisted neck, bridge sag, truss rod anchors not seated etc).
Some people tweak the truss rod every few weeks, some people never touch the truss rod. This is no proof of anything other than that players are different, just like guitars.
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Also check the neck relief. Many guitars need slight seasonal adjustments of the truss rod. Some guitar necks tend to bow a little upward (leading to higher action) in the dry season and vice versa (leading to lower action) in the moist season - especially in central heated surroundings where the air moisture indoors is low in the winter season. This is due to different moist absorbing properties of the fretboard wood and the neck wood which makes the woods swell and shrink differently in varying moisture conditions.
Sometimes the top of an archtop can also swell and shrink with varying air moisture and that too can cause the action to vary seasonally. The remedy for this is a bridge height adjustment, not a truss rod adjustment. But of course both things can happen simultaneously and then the end result becomes more unpredictable. In that case the effects of the fluctuations of the neck and the top may even - seemingly luckily - seem to cancel each other out as far as action height goes. But still the relief should be adjusted to the players preferences to avoid buzzes and slaps or inconsistent fretting resistance up and down the neck. After that the bridge height can be fine tuned. I prefer a slight relief - more on necks with a high action, less on necks with a low action. However, some prefer a perfectly flat fretboard.
I adjust the truss rods on some of my guitars twice a year. I have never through more than 50 years of guitar playing used moisture controlling devices and have not found a need for it, but then I live in a temperate costal climate in northern Europe. People living in climates with more radical seasonal fluctuations may be wise to install moisture controlling gear in the rooms where they keep their guitars.Last edited by oldane; 03-11-2024 at 06:50 AM.
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The humidity in my house is about 30% in the music room during the winter. (More like 45-50% in Spring and Summer.) I do have a humidifier in there, and “water” the guitars regularly with instrument humidifiers.
My Taylor 12-string developed a really bad action due to the top bowing inward slightly near the neck. My guitar guy fixed it with a minor neck reset (it’s a bolt-on, so not a big deal).
Just recently I noticed the action on my Cordoba Stage was much higher than I was used to. A slight truss rod adjustment fixed that.
Otherwise, my archies are all fine, except for perhaps a bit of fret protrusion when it’s dry and other issues I can’t easily prevent. I haven’t had to adjust the truss rods of any of the archtops ever.
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It's possible that the neck is being pulled loose. It's not common, but something that should be checked. There should be signs of a tiny gap between the heel and the body, perhaps just a crack in the finish at first. Humidity is more likely, but it's not hard to take a look at everything.
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Did you happen to put heavier strings on it than what it came to you with?
I'd just check the relief first...
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Thanks for chiming in! Things like setting bridge height and proper truss rod adjustments are routine for me. Working on wooden bridges, doing minor fretwork and the electronics are also things I do myself. Nut slots I leave to a pro, they have all the necessary file widths and I can never hope to match their level of experience.
Anyway, regarding some of the questions/suggestions: I did change the strings, same brand, same type, same gauge. That shouldn’t cause it. No detectable change in neck relief either. The only thing I recently changed on the guitar is to attach the strap button. Ibanez doesn’t do that, the button and screw come as an accessory with the guitar. I put it on the back of the neck heel just before it enters the body and took precautions to prevent the risk of splitting the wood or causing tension (carefully drilling a hole of the correct diameter and depth for the screw, a secure fit but no force needed to get the screw in).
It’s raining today and I humidified the room yesterday, let’s see.
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The fact that the action is screwed all the way down and the action is 2x spec suggests to me that there's more going on than just normal changes due to temperature and humidity. Best case, it's just a truss rod issue and if you get the neck straight it'll be OK. Worst case, a bad neck angle and/or other neck defect and possible warranty claim. I'd get it looked at by a competent tech to get a solid diagnosis.
Originally Posted by Oscar67
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Could the top be sinking at the bridge?
Edit: I'm stupid it would be going the other way around lolLast edited by chris32895; 03-11-2024 at 02:28 PM.
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fwiw Dry conditions would produce more of a back bow making the action lower. Wet conditions would be more apt to cause higher action. Always a truss rod adjustment in the spring where I live.
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Your description of the action height being twice what it is a big amount of movement in only a week. Way beyond whatever I have seen in a normal working guitar. In fact, I would be able to tell as I played the guitar each day. At this point I can simply use my eyes to assess a guitar and it action and then of course playing the guitar. I am super sensitive to my guitars in playing and can detect the action changing even a little that is almost hard to measure.
To me this suggest something else going on. I don't even think weather and temperature would cause that much change. I wonder if the truss rod was loosened and then never tighten back up to what was needed. Sometimes in setting up a guitar that needs the truss rod tightened I will loosen it first to allow movement and an equilibrium reset. When I do guitar neck set ups, I usually keep he guitar for a period of a few days checking and playing it regularly. To me what you describe is not normal at all. it suggests to me the truss rod broke or possible moved in the cavity in some fashion. To repeat, action on a guitar would not double in a week's time unless something is going on very drastic.
The action on my own guitars never varies more than 1/64 of and inch over the period a year. My personal guitars require no season adjustments of the truss rod I have touched them in some case ever............but mostly in decades.
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I’ve played a few of these and am surprised that you needed to have the bridge all the way down (and further) to get a low action
I wonder if there’s some thing to be done with that adjustable tailpiece ?
Others on here will know much better than me though!
IIRC correctly you’re in the Netherlands? In which case, I’d take it Mnr Elferink to see if he can help.
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If the top were sinking, the action would be decreasing rather than increasing. Originally Posted by chris32895
I'm not so sure about that. Originally Posted by skiboyny
In an environment with high humidity, the wooden neck of the guitar absorbs excess moisture. This causes the cells within the wood to swell, subsequently increasing the neck's overall mass. Now, let's remember that the guitar strings consistently exert a forward tension on the neck, trying to pull it into a concave shape (curving towards the strings). However, as the neck expands due to the moisture absorption, it effectively resists this string tension, decreasing the concave bow and may even create a slight "back bow" - a convex shape - where the center of the neck arches away from the strings.
On the other hand, in a dry environment, the guitar neck loses moisture and the wood cells contract, reducing the neck's mass. This makes it easier for the strings to pull the neck forward. Consequently, the neck takes on an enhanced concave bow, curving more towards the strings.
EDIT: Just adding to the above, it's possible that some guitars could have the opposite direction due to the neck wood vs fingerboard wood expanding/contracting at different rates. For example, if the back of the guitar expands at a greater rate than the fretboard, this could cause forward bow, so skiboyny this might explain your different experience.
Having said that I think Mark is correct. This feels like more than changes due to temperature. It could be an issue with the truss rod or an issue with the neck joint. Can you show some photos of the heel where the neck connects to the body? I've seen this issue a lot on old epiphones.
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To put it in perspective: yes, the action about doubled but it was very low and two times very little is still not much. The guitar is now pretty much back to factory spec, before I had it set up. Perhaps just a tad higher. Some might consider the guitar OK as it is now. But it’s a very noticeable change. It was an effortless player, now it’s not. It’s still under warranty so I’ll have it looked at. Thanks!
@omphalopsychos: I think you’re spot on with your analysis.
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I’ve definitely seen guitar’s necks when kept in the same space have the opposite reaction to humidity changes. In general, rosewood fingerboard guitars have tended to go sharper (bow back) with drier conditions. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
I’ve always heard that ebony reacts more to humidity changes, but I’ve also had a Les Paul Custom for nearly 35 years that almost never moves at all no matter what the conditions.
The one thing that I feel pretty confident about is that once you know how an individual guitar reacts climate changes, it will usually be consistent.
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How Does Humidity Affect Guitar Setup And Maintenance? – Becker Guitars – Strum the Passion, Live the Music Lots of articles written to support this. I'm very fussy about low action it does work this way for me. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Last edited by skiboyny; 03-11-2024 at 04:02 PM.
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Similar to a lot of things in life there will be a wide variance of experiences. The effect of humidity on neck bow is a complex system with many factors and interactions. As I mentioned and as TRM also shared, you can have two guitars stored in the same conditions with the opposite effect taking place due to differences in construction materials, wood samples, and various structural factors. Originally Posted by skiboyny
So while you have experienced back bow in the winter, I have experienced mostly the opposite, although I've owned some guitars that share the phenomenon you described. However, forward-bow, or increased concavity, in the dry winter is common. I have a friend who is a pro player in NY and doesn't touch his strat in the winter because it becomes a "Freddie Green Strat" according to him during that season.
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So I think the confusion comes about action because we forget about the truss rod. Let's say it's set perfectly, as the wood takes on moisture, it swells becomes larger. The truss remains the same (essentially looser in this example) so the relief increases because it's no longer properly adjusted. As the humidity drops the wood shrinks once again the truss is now overly tightened thus the back bow. This has been very consistent with my experience. If there is no truss, or if it's a very sturdy neck, and the truss is loose or not adjusted at all, all bets are off. The truss changes the dynamics of the wood. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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Dry air will cause the neck to bow. Action goes up. Tighten the truss rod.
Moist air will cause the neck to straighten. Action goes down. Loosen the truss rod.
Leave the action alone. Invest in the (correct) hex wrench and a feeler gauge. When the relief is correct, the action will return to “normal”.
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Ebony does react to humidity a little more than most other wood species. IME it causes a little more backbow in high humidity, more relief in low humidity. Most necks have a sealed finish on the back of the neck, so moisture won't affect the wood there. But it's not universal, so it's impossible to know every neck situation.
I prefer very low action, so truss rod adjustments are not uncommon. If you have the action set to 1/6" or higher, you may notice no difference as the humidity changes. Mine is lower, but my guitar is not yours, nor vice versa. Even with ebony fretboards, I don't see a huge change with humidity changes, but the changes are enough to require a tweak of the truss rod. It's seldom more than maybe a 1/6 turn of the nut, though, usually less than the space between the D and G strings. Action changing twice the usual would concern me, but again I don't know the OP's guitars.
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I think the effects of humidity on wood are somewhat complex. Yes wood expands with moisture, 100%. And contracts with dryness. But the movement occurs primarily perpendicular to the grain. Since most guitar necks are made with the grain running along the length, the neck wood is not necessarily going to push or pull against the truss rod in one direction.
However obviously wood moves in relation to humidity and can warp or bow depending on many factors. A finish will not completely insulate the wood from moisture.
The one constant is that the strings are pulling toward the body. Guitars are made and generally stored until sold in a reasonably humid environment. When the humidity goes down, the wood loses its elasticity and probably will be pulled toward the body. That’s certainly been my experience.
I wouldn’t underestimate how much wood can move with moisture changes. I haven’t had a lot of problems with the archtops, but my flattops have had some major issues over the years. The solid tops are very sensitive to moisture issues, in part because only one side is finished.
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