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I'm new to playing guitars. Just started taking lesions.
I recently bought a beautiful 'Les Paul', upgraded the cheap pickups to Epiphone ProBuckers and 500k pots kit, replaced the nut, and had it professionally setup. The guitar has beautiful sustain. Keeps it's tune. It has a mahogany body/neck, no maple top, which I'm sure affects tone, but it's lighter, I'm 65 and the only one listening to it. I'm using 10-46ga round wound strings. Tried 11's flatwound but my fingers couldn't take it. Others have played it and say it sounds really good.
I don't know what I expected, maybe something more mellow like an acoustical, but I can't stand the ringing jangley sound - strumming open chords: B & high E really bug me. It's hard to practice.
I figured out what sound I want is jazz - nice mellow tones. Light blues is OK too. George Benson and BB King are some of my all time favorites.
People talk about Seymour Duncan Seth Lover. I've been looking at getting a neck PRail, but the P90 seems like it may be a Jeckle/Hyde. Maybe an Ibanez's GB special, or maybe a Epiphone Calibrated T-Type - it's like a maze. I just don't know and I'm tired of wasting money. Advice will be to buy a different guitar but I don't want go there just yet - maybe in a year I'll be asking advice about that. I want to at least learn to play this thing 1st and confirm which direction I'm going.
I'm open to advice/suggestions.
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02-29-2024 03:26 AM
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Firstly, welcome to the forum/group, and welcome of the many joys of learning guitar!
There will be many far more experienced musicians on this forum than me, and here are my thoughts. You already spent a lot of money on upgrading a very reasonable guitar, so I'd start from here. Seymour Duncan Seth Lover are great pickups with a fantastic reputation and fan base, but hold off for the time being. If you are at any stage intent on trying out new pickups, these would be one of the top choices. The search for the perfect pickup is never ending, I am for instance perfectly happy with the Gibson 57 pickups on my 335.
As you are new to guitar, may I make 1 suggestion - please don't be afraid to use the tone controls on both your guitar and your amp, they can make a huge difference to how the guitar sounds. There is every chance that you may be able to tame the shrill top ends of the B and E strings with some EQ. A cheap EQ pedal may also be an option, a Behringer for instance. A used one should be easy to find.
If you have tried that and are not happy with the result, you could perhaps lower the pickups slightly and see if that makes a difference. Watch some YT videos on how to do it, or ask your technician to do it for you, and test the results.
Lastly, try the SD Seth Lovers, or have a look on your local sites for some used pickups for a better price. Many guitarists love to swap pickups and will sell them. Perhaps read up on the differences between Alnico magnets 1, 2 an 5, they all have slightly different characteristics. It's very difficult to give pickup recommendations, there are 1000s out there, and we all have different tastes and ears. I have a guitar with Lollar Low Wind Imperials and find them far too clean and 'sterile', but many players love them. With a bit of EQing and boost pedal in front, they sound pretty good for jazz and blues. The Gibson 57 sound far muddier and rougher, but again with a bit of EQing on both guitar and amp and a Xotic boost pedal in front, they sound fantastic through a Tweed amp.
Also, sometimes changing the pick will make a difference as well, even the way you strum or pick the strings. And some strings are probably mellower than others, another avenue of research and trial and error.
All the best with your search, and see what you can do with what you already have before spending more money. Perhaps let us know what amplifier you are playing through, this will allow some guitarists here to perhaps offer some better suggestions.
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I have Seth's in my Archtop and a CS 339 and they are delightfully warm . The Benedetto B6 is also quite lovely
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If you find the guitar a bit too jangly, that may not be the pickups ?
Maybe you should try another bridge with graph tech saddles (resomax) or nylon saddles.
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I have had many Les Pauls over the years ( I currently own three) and have gotten great jazz tone with the following pickups:
T-tops
Shaw pickups
490R
Classic 57
Vintage mini humbucker
That said, I had one Lester that did not have a maple top and I could not get a jazz tone I liked even after a pickup swap.
HTH
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Hey Teague,Welcome to the Forum and the crazy world of jazz guitar!You mentioned you're taking lessons; assuming they're in person (the best option, especially since you're a beginner, IMO!), bring your amp and guitar to the next lesson and have your teacher help you dial in a tone you like! [BTW, what amp are you using??] There's likely no reason now to switch pickups (again!) before exploring everything else you have! [And this from a guy who loves swapping pickups!]All that being said, if I were looking for a nice PAF for an LP, I'd call Amalfitano or Bare Knuckle. Happy hunting, and enjoy the Jazz journey!!Marc
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I had an overwound humbucker sized P-90, a Duncan 59n, a Seth, and a '57 in the neck position of my LP copy. The '57 is the one that is still there. I have found it to be overall smoother than the Seth so unless you have a really dark sounding guitar the '57 is the ticket.
Welcome to the forum Teague. I will say, if you just started getting lesions recently you might want to dial down your practice routine there Yngwie. It's supposed to be fun, not painful. Your callouses will build up over time and the pain will diminish but if you go full tilt right off the bat, while noble, you will suffer those lesions.
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I don’t think you need a new pickup at all. You need to focus on your picking technique and maybe change the pick you use. By the way you can change the treble strings without changing the rest.
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Some really good, and most importantly, valid advice from people with the experiences we all go through.
Seth's are great. But not the cheapest solution! And they may still be a gamble on finding the tone you want. I currently play 3 recent Epiphones. And I use the stock pickups, because I think they are MORE than adequate. In fact, while I could easily make up my mind to change them (I'm not afraid of the work) I know in my heart and in my ears that it just wouldn't be worth the trouble, because the stock p/ups are just that good.
What I have been doing lately to get a "jazz" tone with P90's or hum buckers, in my Fender amp, is leave the guitar Tone control on 10, but turn the volume down to 5 - 8. For reasons too long to explain, the tone mellows out a bit and the bright notes (1st and 2nd strings) come into a better balance. The response stays lively whereas turning down the Tone pot, dulls the tone. For me.
Try it, and maybe tweak the amp after that.
Enjoy.
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You folks have make me feel very welcome.
Thank you everybody for all your advice. There is a lot to take in, but trust me I will see how to apply it all.
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Guys on this forum are insanely knowledgeable. I always hesitate to post when amongst what are many likely professionals, but my two cents:
D'Andrea Pro Plek should get rid of any janglies. You can get them on Amazon. Followed by/with picking technique.
My LP has a Bareknuckle Juggernaut in the neck, which is most certainly not a "jazz" pickup. Nonetheless it will do jazz tone in spades using the tone knob. Most pickups probably will too? Just a guess. Nylon saddles, flatwounds help also, but easiest and cheapest solution is the right pick and technique.
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Marcwhy's advice to bring your guitar and amp to the lesson to get some help dialing in your tone is the quickest way to get from where you are to where you want to be without spending excess time and money on dead ends.
The other "most important thing to know" is that tone starts in the fingers, and before that, in your mind. George Benson is a good starting point for jazz tone, but listen to lots of other jazz guitarists to refine your concept of what a good jazz tone is. That will inform what you tell your fingers to do, which will shape your tone before it ever gets to the pickup and the amp. Work on that before throwing more time and money down the gear rathole. Learn to make the gear you have sound good. George and BB would sound like themselves - not like you- if they were playing through your guitar and amp. Figure out what you want to sound like and go after that without worrying too much about gear.
The idea of a good jazz tone is highly subjective - it has been debated endlessly on this forum. Without worrying too much about what other people think, just use those discussions learn of other jazz guitarists to listen to - that will inform your conception of what a good jazz tone is TO YOU. There are LOTS of "good" jazz tones. Find the one(s) that you like.
Now... BB is a great player but he's known for blues, not jazz. You may need to consider that a "good blues tone" is going to be different than a "good jazz tone" and that there can be lots of "good" examples of either. Getting a good blues tone and a good jazz tone out of the same rig will require adjustment to settings, conception, and mechanical technique, but it's not impossible by any means. Yet ... it is easier to focus on just one goal first, so you can get to know your guitar, your gear and your playing abilities without becoming frustrated by trying to go in too many directions at once.
So take Marc's advice and bring your gear to your next lesson. You'll be glad you did :-)
PS: Good tone on a recording and good tone live are two very different animals. Getting out to local clubs and seeing how local players get a good tone live is a valuable source of info. If you go up to them on a break to ask how they get their tone, you'll likely get the full dose of TMI :-)
PPS - My LP Deluxe is VERY bright, so I roll off both the volume and tone pots a bit, use only the neck pickup for jazz, and fiddle with amp settings too. Settings are another rathole... lots of ways to get good tones from various guitars and amps. Try 'em all... find out what works for you, your guitar, and your amp.Last edited by starjasmine; 02-29-2024 at 09:55 PM.
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An easy way I've found to fatten up my tone is raise my pickups closer to my strings and roll off the tone. Also make sure the guitar's action is consistent string to string. I once could not dial out a jangly e string and realized the action for it was higher than the rest of the strings. This resulted in the e string being further from the pickup than the others. Fixing the action also fixed the janglyness. All these things don't cost a thing!
If you must spend money and want to fatten up your tone at least go cheap and buy D'Andrea Pro Plec 351 picks and thank me later!
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I have a Classic ‘57 in the neck position in my Les Paul Studio (Maple top on “chambered” mahogany body). I can get a nice dark jazz tone out of it.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Keith
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The late 60's classic BB King tone is likely T-Top pickups in a 355 through a JBL loaded Fender Twin. The late 70's and 80's and forward BB King tone is a 490 loaded Lucille with a Gibson Lab Series amp. I was able to approximate the earlier tone with a Twin and a Probucker loaded Sheraton as well as a 57 classic loaded ES Gibson. I can even provide some amp/and guitar settings but you will have to cop his vibrato. Best of luck there!
I currently have an Edwards ES with a Seth in the neck and a 57 in the bridge. The 57 honks better than the Seths so for me it made a better bridge than the Seth that was in there. I can do the BB with it but the 57's are better for it. The Seths are substantially brighter IME. All said and done I would just use 57's in most of my guitars unless I had something special to put in there but the Seth gets the job done. So does the 490 set.
If you have a LP or an ES you can basically get the BB happening using the middle position and rolling back both volumes as well as rolling back the tone on the bridge pickup.
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Hard to give advice without actually hearing the problem, but here goes.
If the two top strings are too trebly there are a bunch of things you can try.
1. Turn down the tone control. This rolls off highs. You ought to be able to get rid of the jangly sound, but you'll have to see if you like what's left.
2. Go to thicker strings (probably won't help much, but might).
3. Lower the pickup including the polepieces. The further away the pickup is from the strings, the mellower the sound. I won't go into the physics.
4. The pot resistance (ohm number) and capacitor are factors. I don't know enough about how to pick new values, but there's info on line. This is a cheap mod if you can solder. A new cap is maybe a couple of bucks. New pot, not much more.
5. Some guitars have an extra low value cap which keeps treble from bleeding off when you turn down the volume control. If you've got one of those you might try disconnecting it.
6. Neck pickup only, right? The bridge pu is supposed to be jangly.
7. Take the guitar to the store and plug into an EQ box. See if it solves the problem.
8. Roll treble off at the amp.
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Yeah you should be able to get a dark tone you like by just adjusting settings. Changing pickups isn't necessary, but it can be fun so I wouldn't discourage it. SD 59 is my favorite dark jazz pickup.
My secret weapon for instant dark, smoky jazz tone: 100k volume pot.
Also, you didn't change the nut material to bone did you? Ime, that's the plinkiest sounding material out of the common materials.Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 03-01-2024 at 03:07 AM.
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If you want a nice recreation of an old-style PAF, then Monty's make a great Classic PAF replica or an under-spun PAF. I imagine the classic would be similar to an SD Seth Lover or SD Antiquity. Not a jazz humbucker per say, but I imagine in the old days many players just played standard PAFs...
Monty's PAF Humbucker Pickup – Monty's Guitars
If you want another ultimate PAF recreation, but super expensive, then Throbak might be the ticket:
P.A.F. Pickups: ThroBak Vintage PAF Humbucker Reproductions - ThroBak
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So much good advice here, so start with what you have in hand! And yes, different picks will change your tone. So will the dials.
Enjoy the chase, but don't forget to practice practice practice. Just by playing (a lot) will help technique and tone, comfort with the instrument, and maybe some revelations.
Again, play with the dials. Maybe the ears just need to enjoy and accept.
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Plus 1 to what everybody else has said; neck pickup only, turn down the tone knob, fiddle with the amp's tone setting. Maybe you are hitting the strings too hard with the pick.
I would add that there's nothing wrong with learning to play with just bare fingers, no pick. I'm sure your teacher wants you to use a pick and you should learn to use it, but also when you are just practicing on your own try without a pick, I guarantee very mellow jazziness. Wes Montgomery was known for picking with just his thumb. Give your fingertips time to toughen up.
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I’ll back up the folks suggesting you adjust things and not buy anything at this point.
thicker picks make a big difference.
but since it’s the high strings that are killing you, I’d lower the pole screws under those strings. That’ll help. And probably lower the treble side of the pickup, maybe both sides.
and I don’t know what size pick you’re using but mediums will be bright. I’d go at least thick or extra.
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Fender Heavy picks.
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To the OP, what amp are you using? That makes a huge difference.
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Based on the collective advice I received from you folks, this is the course I’m taking, in random order:
I got some Jim Dunlop picks. Super thick. I really like them.
My AMP is a Line 6 Spider V 30 MKII modeling amp. I originally had a Fender Mustang LT50. I traded it for the Line 6 because I wanted the ability to change the sound. Frankly in retrospect I wish I had bought a super clean amp. My son recently bought a 1993 Fender Concert tube amp which has excellent sound.
I’ve decided not to buy new pickups but look at my existing electronics.
I am putting my original pickups back in. I may not have done myself any favors switching out my original pickups for Epiphone ProBuckers. Based on research I think my original pickups may have been better suited for me. I measured them and they are much hotter than the Probuckers. This seems like reverse world and I thought hotter meant hard R&R, metal, etc. But no, hotter means loss of some high frequencies, which are really annoying me.
I’m replacing my electronics and wiring with quality stuff.
Some have mentioned it comes down to playing ability. I’ve noticed some people are able to get any sound they want from their guitar.
Tomorrow, I have a lesson. I’ll bring my amp along and discuss the settings with my instructor.
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No, optimizing your rig has nothing to do with playing ability. That's bs to conflate the 2. You can have a nice rig while you improve as a musician. You don't have to have a pos and blame it on your playing when no amount of playing will fix shoddy gear. Originally Posted by teagueAMX
If you're happy with the baseline voice of your guitar, you should be able to dial in a tone that you like by adjusting. At most you'd need a $20 Behringer eq pedal.
If there's something that's really bugging you about your guitar, or that's not ideal, there's no reason not to fix it.
Quality of electronics minus the pickups make almost zero difference on the tone. However, the value of the pots makes a big difference. If you like warmer sounds, why not put lower value pots in? 500k are pretty bright. You could go to 250k, 200k, or even 100k for super warm.
Could you give us more info? Maybe post a song of the tone you're looking to get and a clip of your existing tone.Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 03-04-2024 at 10:24 PM.
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