Tops “opening up” over time

[Mark Kleinhaut]

This Ribbecke guitar is 10 weeks old and already feels to me like it’s hitting a tonal sweet spot. What are your thoughts on the seasoning effect of vibrations from playing, or those mechanical doohickeys, that supposedly relax the wood fibers and “open” the sound? How long should this actually take?

[nyc chaz]

By asking this question,you are going to get guys that say it's just your perception that changes not the guitar and the camp that says yes time changes the sound of an instrument.I believe instruments do change over time from being played but that it takes years not weeks for that to happen.Just want to say your Ribbecke is a beautiful instrument.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Based on my experience, some guitars change over time, some do not. Some start to change with hours of play, others take months, and some continue to develop over years. Some have to be played regularly or they tighten back up, sometimes a LOT. Others, once “played in” mostly stay that way.

I think vibrating devices can definitely help. I’ve used a ToneRite and definitely heard improvements, both in tone and volume. I want to try the Tone Traveler sometime, but haven’t yet.


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[DawgBone]

Starts getting really good after about 20 years. After 10 you can hear your average dreadnought top start to open up. This is why I don't believe in buying new acoustics.

[skykomishone]

Mark,
The science suggests that the changes are more related to "wood consist(ing) mainly of cellulose, lignin, and hemicellulose, and that all wood gradually loses hemicellulose—a soluble polysaccharide—to evaporation over a long period of time."

I've read other studies suggesting that UV, temperature and humidity disproportionately effect tonal changes.

One study I read seemed to suggest the vibration theory was disproven throwing around Fourier transforms and other terms on a sample size of 3, making me dubious of the results.

Personally, I think enough goes on with a new guitar physically in the earliest timeframe at a higher rate and with decreasing rate over time regarding tone changes as a function of physical changes on several factors, most likely it's new environment being the biggest. Cumulatively over time, temperature, UV, and humidity will always weight more in my opinion, that together with the physical stresses of your playing and string choice and tension.

The new guitar that I got from Mark Campellone I can hear more changes with variations in humidity and temperature than anything else. And I've played it a lot. Any difference attributable to my playing I expect is negligible by comparison. I expect there is some, but a 10% difference in Relative humidity and my body and room temperatures, how long its out of it's case, etc., it would be difficult for me to say vibrations are different because I've played it more for 2 years, or 2 hours.

Peace

[Rickco]

This Ribbecke guitar is 10 weeks old and already feels to me like it’s hitting a tonal sweet spot. What are your thoughts on the seasoning effect of vibrations from playing, or those mechanical doohickeys, that supposedly relax the wood fibers and “open” the sound? How long should this actually take?

The guitar sounds great, so is your recording. Are we hearing the floater and mic blended or? also looks/sounds like Nickle round wounds?
Nice video,thanks

[Gilpy]

I’ve only ever owned one new archtop, my Campellone EP. It has a 15” laminate body with a carved spruce top.
I noticed a definite improvement in tone and harmonic detail within the first few weeks.

[ccroft]

I like the idea of guitars opening up over time. The various explanations make sense to me. And, you know, there's the old Strad violin thing too.

There might be some other things in play. You know the old line "tone is in the fingers". Maybe it just takes some time for your fingers to find your tone. Especially if it's something physically quite different than what you're used to. I like my B-120's tone even more after playing it daily for a year and a half since it was born. Is it opening up or am I opening up to it? It's just a ply box, but it has solid wood bracing, saddle, neck, kerfing, etc.

And there's 'psycho acoustics'. I love the way my guitar looks, feels and plays. I think that could influence what I think of it's sound. And after dropping all that dough and the long wait, I really do want to love it.

Mark, you have excellent recordings of your solo playing from when you first got it that you can compare with today. And you can listen to them without YouTube doing it's thing to them. Is it the guitar opening up or you getting more comfortable, or is it a combo effect?

The way it's constructed, that's a whole different animal than most of us play. Maybe it ages differently too.

[deacon Mark]

Based on my experience, some guitars change over time, some do not. Some start to change with hours of play, others take months, and some continue to develop over years. Some have to be played regularly or they tighten back up, sometimes a LOT. Others, once “played in” mostly stay that way.

I think vibrating devices can definitely help. I’ve used a ToneRite and definitely heard improvements, both in tone and volume. I want to try the Tone Traveler sometime, but haven’t yet.


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An excellent assessment on what might happen. For a nitro finish guitar, the changes will happen usually the most in the first year of the guitar as finish cures. It can also depend on how you actually play the guitar. Playing with a pick mostly is different than fingerstyle and I think that can be reflected over the years. Like TRM says I seem to notice some guitars not played for a long time will open back up. I believe mostly because of getting it out of the case or environment and it reacts differently.

I bought basically an un-played ghost built D'angelico New Yorker that Heritage made in 1994 about 18 months ago. It is an 18 inch carved based on a 1960 D'angelico they had around to take notes. This guitar at first seemed a bit dull or at least no really open and ringing. Not bad but just could tell it did not really sing like I thought it should. Well, it had never been played and I started playing in 2-3 hours a day for 6-7 months. It really opened up on the treble end with a much more cutting sound. The sustain increased vibration of the guitar clearly came out. I did numerous comparisons of other guitars I have just to keep track. It still is opening a bit and is louder for sure, however now after 18 months I think it is played in has not changed the last few.

Call me crazy, call me tone deaf, but I hear what I hear. In comparison my dad's Barker made in 1965 has been in with him or me since it was new, has not changed in sound really much that I can tell. It sounds to me like it did 10, 20, and 25 years ago.

[rpjazzguitar]

It seems to me that mechanical forces on a wooden instrument could cause it to sound different over time.

I don't see why I should assume that the change would be for the better.

I wouldn't trust my memory of what the guitar sounded like a week ago, much less years.

And, I wouldn't trust a salesman who says "It may sound bad now, but it will be great in a year".

[deacon Mark]

It seems to me that mechanical forces on a wooden instrument could cause it to sound different over time.

I don't see why I should assume that the change would be for the better.

I wouldn't trust my memory of what the guitar sounded like a week ago, much less years.

And, I wouldn't trust a salesman who says "It may sound bad now, but it will be great in a year".

When they get worse which can happen, we usually start to think about what to do to change the situation. Truly carved and tuned tops that are made correctly have the advantage. Guitars can be over-built and heavy; they will not produce top sound. Guitars can also be built too delicate and eventually give out on the structure or need attention. Bracing is for sound and support. You cannot build only with sound in mind because it has to last. Flattop guitars are pretty notorious for being in this situation because of the way they are built and how they work, compared to an archtop. You could make a super responsive flattop with big sound and the works with bracing that is light, but over time it might decide to explode or pull up the top. Happens all the time.

[Sam Sherry]

I'll be the other guy. In my experience:

> Over the first few hours of tension and playing-in the change is substantial
> Over the first few days the change is notable
> Over the next few months the change is subtle
> After about half a year you've got what you've got by and large
Past six months it depends on how it's played, how it's strung, how it's damaged and how it's repaired

[Cunamara]

In my case, there are just too many variables to be able to tell.

I have had my carved Matt Cushman archtop for 18 years now; I think it sounds different than it did when I first got it. My initial impression was that it was very bright with a sort of hard kind of sound; now it is full and roundish and warm. But is that because I've adjusted my playing technique to get the sound I want or is it because the guitar has changed? Or have I just lost an appreciable amount of high-end hearing in the intervening years? I've also tried many different kinds of strings, changed pics, recently have gone with a thumbpick and fake nails to do more fingerstyle playing; is that responsible for the difference in tone that I am noticing? Maybe am I not even remembering what it used to sound like correctly (I don't have a whole lot of good recordings to use as a comparison).

Here I'm speaking acoustically; electrically it's changed a lot, but I've had seven different pickups on it over the years trying to find one that I really liked. The most recent change just a month or so ago was to install a Pete Biltoft floating humbucker which is, I think, the pickup for that guitar. I am finally happy with the amplified sound.

[ccroft]

...Or have I just lost an appreciable amount of high-end hearing in the intervening years?...

I often wonder what I'd sound like to my 20 year old self. Or folks that don't have ear damage.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I'll be the other guy. In my experience:

> Over the first few hours of tension and playing-in the change is substantial
> Over the first few days the change is notable
> Over the next few months the change is subtle
> After about half a year you've got what you've got by and large
Past six months it depends on how it's played, how it's strung, how it's damaged and how it's repaired

This sounds right to me, or at very least it’s what I’d like things to be as I don’t 20 years to wait around

[vinnyv1k]

I only own Gibson’s and Campellone’s. I buy new. I don’t notice much difference with Gibson’s as they age. They may get a little more mellow sounding with age.

Campellone’s ….well at least mine start out very bright sounding.
After a year or 2, I notice way more warmth, depth, volume, and sustain.
They all have been like this and seem to keep sounding better though my oldest is only 4 or 5 years old I think. After a year you notice a tone bloom.

Modern Gibson’s are overbuilt. You are going to notice more tonal changes on lighter builds.

[icr]

My Gibson L50 opened up pretty good over the years. Not so much in the top but mostly the back.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

My Gibson L50 opened up pretty good over the years. Not so much in the top but mostly the back.

oh man, that looks so messed !

[Oscar67]

I like the idea of guitars opening up over time. The various explanations make sense to me. And, you know, there's the old Strad violin thing too.

There might be some other things in play. You know the old line "tone is in the fingers". Maybe it just takes some time for your fingers to find your tone. Especially if it's something physically quite different than what you're used to. I like my B-120's tone even more after playing it daily for a year and a half since it was born. Is it opening up or am I opening up to it? It's just a ply box, but it has solid wood bracing, saddle, neck, kerfing, etc.

And there's 'psycho acoustics'. I love the way my guitar looks, feels and plays. I think that could influence what I think of it's sound. And after dropping all that dough and the long wait, I really do want to love it.

Well said. Couldn’t agree more. All the factors mentioned here result in a perceived change, at least in my experience.

[mr. beaumont]

I will just say, a guitar that is played will always sound better than one that is not.

[JGinNJ]

"opening up" is often discussed in the flatop world. Enough people believe in it that they even sell gadgets to accelerate the process, and companies like Martin feed it with "torrefied" tops and "VTS".
I've had nice Martin's bought new, played for 10 years- I couldn't tell you if there was a difference. Honestly things like strings, humidity, and even what pick you use make a much bigger difference. Having said that, I've played some vintage guitars and thought, wow, there must be something to this.

The archtop is an entirely different animal, the tonal profile, the way the top works, and generally played amplified, I don't think it matters much at all. I've had Korean made laminate archtops for 10-20 years, they don't change.

[ccroft]

I'd venture to say my musical taste, memory, and hearing changed more over the last 10 years than my Eastman 880 has.

Also strings: I played nothing but rounds for over 50 years. B-120 came with rounds but now I think it likes TI Swings better. That's me changing.

[Jimmy blue note]

As a builder and someone who is always playing, I do notice a big change especially in the new green guitar. But I'm a fingerstyle player so I may be talking about something that's not really relevant for a strummer.
First of all, just my opinion, but the better an instrument is built, the more I feel the change. Not necessarily how much it costs; Eastmans play in really nicely and some recent Gibsons, let's just say it'll take more patience to feel that fruit to ripen fully.
New builders tend to over build. Seasoned builders learn how to feel the approach of the sweet spot and when to leave it be.
THe lighter an instrument is built, the more responsive it can be, and the easier it is to go the TINIEST bit too far and turn 8 months of work into a dead flounder.
THe lighter an instrument is built, the faster it will reach its peak. Flat tops might peak at 12-25 years and plateau at which some classicals (the lightest of the flats) might begin a decline even within the lifetime of the owner. Violins can mature over centuries. Strad never heard any of his instruments at their peak.
An instrument can continue to get better for decades. I had a walnut with a high arch, it got better and better for decades. It feels like a leather glove and everyone who plays it wants it. No idea when it will plateau but it was built in '84 and it just gets better. Never could have imagined nor planned that.
Perception is in the ear of the player. It might be as fine as "I'm inspired! It feels like an extension of my fingers now" and not sound any different to the listener. Or it might be "Wow I can hear you getting so much more from your sound". For some, what I believe is just imaginary bullshit to them.
Laminates...take a LONG time to ripen. Lacquer finish and lots of loving playing, a LONG time.
Poly laminates, keep on being patient, let me know when you feel anything.

As far as mechanical tone accelerators, yes they do make a difference, but the question is Do YOU want what it has to offer. They loosen a top, some of that will regress to the previous state over time, some of it will stay, but in my opionion, the state your instrument is left in post tone shaking can be felt as a generic shake down, and not the same result that comes from YOUR combination of touch, musical input, dynamic and frequency input that comes from YOUR playing. You play your guitar, it WILL meld with your playing style if it's a good guitar. Put a generic shaker on it, and it will play easier, but not in as personal imprint.
You buy a stiff leather jacket. You wear it in and it fits like a second skin. You can have it stretched or you can buy a nylon wind breaker, soft, but not like one you've worked in.

That's my opinion, and I've gotten hand built high quality archtops that have been in a collector's cabinet for decades. Beautiful but stiff. Frozen in a green state. They'll always look pristine but I'll tell you this much, it takes a LOT longer to play one of those into a responsive and harmonically rich instrument. A fine guitar remembers the attention it's been given. It's a partnership. If you've been there, you know what I mean.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Honestly things like strings, humidity, and even what pick you use make a much bigger difference.

This, I am generally in complete disagreement with. I’ve played many guitars that none of these factors would have made much difference. Some were simply completely dead and lifeless. With a few months of intense play, they had blossomed into full voiced archtops with much more acoustic complexity. Everyone’s experience is different, but I’m fortunate to have experienced a large number of guitars under many differing scenarios which greatly informs my opinion in this regard. That’s not to say that the other factors you mention don’t affect the sound of a guitar, and I think the changes are more profound in acoustic archtops.

The archtop is an entirely different animal, the tonal profile, the way the top works, and generally played amplified, I don't think it matters much at all.

I guess amplified archtops may be the more common scenario on the whole, but acoustic archtops are where the magic is.


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[Kirk Garrett]

I will just say, a guitar that is played will always sound better than one that is not.

I see what you did there