-
We might be moving to a new flat/apartment in a few months’ time, and for health reasons are keen to use infrared heaters, they being much better at heating a room without drying the air - no dry throats or headaches. Has anyone any idea of how they might affect guitars? Infrared waves are emitted through a room, warming objects rather than the air. It is claimed to be far better than traditional electrical heating systems, but I’m worried about the effect on my guitars.
-
02-01-2024 03:10 PM
-
Rob, I'd think of it like would you set your guitar in the sun?
It's radient heat. If it's directed, then you don't want it getting blasted. If it's shielded and difuse and the case or the guitar in it isn't getting stressed, I'd think it wouldn't hurt.
I would never sit a guitar next to a radiator. I might sit a guitar in a room with a radiator, providing it isn't getting differentially heated, especially beyond the comfortable ambient temperature of the room.
My home has heated floors. The floor temperature is never much different from the air temperature in the room. Me and my guitars love it.
I expect that others smarter than me might add to this.
We sometimes use an infrared space heater when it drops to minus freezing out, and I would never sit my guitar anywhere directly in front, or near. You can feel it.
I found this...
Infrared Heaters | Luthier Talk
-
Thanks for that, sky. I saw that forum discussion, but no one had direct experience of infrared heaters. Right now I’m a good-bit wary of the idea. I’ve written to a company which makes these heaters, asking if any studies have been done on the effect upon musical instruments.
-
It's an interesting question. As I understand it, all heaters are infrared radiation emitters. What we experience as "heat" is the infrared portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. Forced air heaters (furnaces, ceramic electric space heaters, etc.) create infrared radiation inside them, heat the air and then blow the warmed air around the house, which then releases infrared radiation to the surrounding environment (as the accelerated, excited molecules in the warm air lose their energy and "cool off"). Radiators sit in the corner and release infrared radiation. A fire creates infrared radiation. Things cool off at night because they radiate infrared into the atmosphere and thus into space faster than they are picking it up from the environment.
I think, just like you wouldn't put your guitar in front of a furnace duct or next to a radiator, you'll be fine so long as the guitars are a reasonable distance away from the infrared heating element. If it's too hot for your hand, it's too hot for your guitar. Otherwise it's fine. We're not talking about phasers here.
-
OK. I’m now wondering why, if all heaters are infrared heaters, there are specific heaters called infrared heaters?
Among the benefits there is:
- Healthier Air: Unlike traditional heating, infrared heating doesn’t circulate dust and allergens, improving indoor air quality.
Being an asthmatic, that is attractive.
-
I think that's marketing to some extent. The other aspect might be how the infrared radiation is generated. In a furnace or boiler or campfire, for example, it's created by combustion. In a microwave it's created electronically through some sort of a something something coil. In a toaster, it's created electrically through a short circuit in the heating coils (ditto many space heater, designs, as well).
-
hey Rob... that sounds right with respect to breathing.
I know from playing thousands of outdoor gigs, festivals etc... That rapid temp changes are not good with wood... or for tuning LOL. I try and always let instruments slowly adjust to temps. As mentioned above... forced heated... air of any type can't be good for guitars.
I have an 1940 epiphone Emperor Blond Cutaway with floating pickup... gigged with it for years. After a few years of outdoor events... the piping started coming loose and the top hinted at developing hairline cracks. Took over a year for work to be finished, not to mention the $ LOL, anyway it stays in case most of the time. It's still the loudest acoustic I have. That kind of why I started using newer guitars for work... I'm on my 2nd Guild artist award... it's a 94. They handle the weather better and can find replacements easier.
I would be careful... although being older LOL I don't really need to worry to much longer.
-
I've been in several woodshops that have them. So... maybe they're fine for wood. Interestingly, the big industrial ones are powered by natural gas. Like a patio heater.
All heat drives down relative humidity and moisture content. That's how a hair-dryer works. I'd keep my instruments at a distance and keep an eye on humidity levels. It can be added.
Another interesting infrared heater is the one on a barbecue. Again, gas fired. I'm not sure what a infrared heater is now that you mention it! Maybe it's just a heat source without a fan? Like the sun.
-
Infrared is just a tiny spectrum of the total electromagnetic spectrum. Infrared has longer wavelengths than visible light, and ultraviolet has shorter wavelengths. We feel IR as heat, but we can also feel UV as heat, if it's strong enough. Shorter wavelengths tend to be more dangerous than longer. I have no idea how infrared heaters produce the energy, but it's the same wavelengths as those produced by fire or the sun. The problem with fire is that it produces smoke and other chemicals. Space heaters produce infrared radiation by various means, whether its by using electricity to heat wires or other materials, or by heating oil inside tubes with the electricity. Infrared is not mysteric magic, it's just heat energy, however it's produced. Microwave ovens don't directly produce infrared, they just use microwaves, a slightly different electromagnetic frequency, to heat water, which in turn produces infrared radiation as the food is heated by its internal water. In short, if your room is a comfortable temperature for you, it should be fine for your guitars.
-
So, keep my guitars well away from the heater (as I would do anyway), and don’t go for rapid changes to room temperature, and it should be OK.
I understand it’s an emerging technology for home heating, cleaner and cheaper. They even have mirrors for your bathroom that double as IR heaters, not fogging-up the glass.
-
The company got back to me with this:
”Thank you for your enquiry. Our infrared panels which are the zero light panels you would use in a domestic setting, would not cause any damage to the wood in the guitars, as long as you adhere to all the clearances detailed in the installation manuals.”Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 02-02-2024 at 09:35 AM.
-
To those who say all heaters are infrared heaters… yes but also no?
Warm objects including people, animals and household radiators do give off infrared radiation.
But the primary heating mechanism of a household radiator for example is not as the name suggests infra red radiation*, but air convection.
Presumably the primary heating mechanism of an infrared heater is infrared radiation. I’d have to do more reading. Compared to convection, radiation is a very slow method of heat transfer. So I’d need to learn more. Interesting!
I am not a luthier, but I would avoid temperature gradients. So therefore try to keep warming and cooling of any instruments even and slow. This is why you don’t want instruments next to a radiator. I’ll have a look to see what steps might be appropriate for an IR heater, for example if there’s an sort of beam with these things.
So long as you do that I think it’ll be fine.
*radiation is a big scary word for many but in fact refers to many things including light and radio waves. Ionising radiation is the scary stuff, and don’t worry infrared is not ionising radiation and is in fact less so than visible light.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
So I looked up infrared heaters and the most common design (for instance from a company called Hershel) are largish flat panels. From what I remember of wave mechanics I think these would be fairly good at not creating hot spots anywhere and spreading the infrared pretty evenly around a rectangular room.
That is if they are installed correctly - which is what the company is alluding to in their reply.
Which reminded me that William Herschel discovered infrared radiation. That guy again!
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 02-02-2024 at 10:59 AM.
-
Yes, Herschel is the company I'm looking at. There are guys in Edinburgh who fit them.
Last edited by Rob MacKillop; 02-02-2024 at 11:43 AM.
-
Infrared is any radiation between 750 and 1000 micrometers in wavelength, just below visible light. There are many methods of generating infrared, but the radiation is the same, however it's produced. Burning gas, or logs, produces infrared, but also visible light and even higher frequencies. Passing electricity through a resistance produces infrared, and possibly visible light. Stars produce infrared, as part of a very broad spectrum of energy. If you go out in the sun, in locations which have sunlight
you get infrared along with UV. Fortunately for us, the earth's atmosphere filters out most harmful radiation, but not all. Mammals produce infrared radiation as part of their biological processes, and you bombard your guitar with infrared whenever you play it. I don't know how the heaters being discussed produce heat, but if it's only in the IR spectrum, it may be more efficient than other methods, but I suspect it's just using electricity through resistance, like an electric oven, but at low levels. But infrared is simply energy at a particular range of frequencies/wavelengths, however it's produced.
It seems that there are also infrared heaters that burn gas. The ways we have of producing infrared radiation are to some extent limited.
-
Well, here's the website of the leading IR heating company in the UK: Herschel Infrared Heaters: UK No. 1 infrared heating panel manufacturer - have a look - I'm not on commission!
-
I went down a wikipedia rabbit hole and it turns out infrared heaters - also known as heat lamps - have been used in industrial processes for around a century.
Originally Posted by sgosnell
Infrared is any radiation between 750 and 1000 micrometers in wavelength, just below visible light. There are many methods of generating infrared, but the radiation is the same, however it's produced. Burning gas, or logs, produces infrared, but also visible light and even higher frequencies. Passing electricity through a resistance produces infrared, and possibly visible light. Stars produce infrared, as part of a very broad spectrum of energy. If you go out in the sun, in locations which have sunlightyou get infrared along with UV. Fortunately for us, the earth's atmosphere filters out most harmful radiation, but not all. Mammals produce infrared radiation as part of their biological processes, and you bombard your guitar with infrared whenever you play it. I don't know how the heaters being discussed produce heat, but if it's only in the IR spectrum, it may be more efficient than other methods, but I suspect it's just using electricity through resistance, like an electric oven, but at low levels. But infrared is simply energy at a particular range of frequencies/wavelengths, however it's produced.
It seems that there are also infrared heaters that burn gas. The ways we have of producing infrared radiation are to some extent limited.
As heaters they can be used both internally and externally. Some designs are directional - so they could be used to heat a desk in a large room, or a table in a garden - imagine a sort of spotlight but with heat - but the ones Rob is talking about are designed to heat internal rooms.
They are apparently much more energy efficient than traditional convection heaters (ie radiators) as less heat is lost due to heat convecting out of the roof of the building. Although... this is coming from the company selling them, so...
The lamps themselves can get very hot. They are not however designed to encourage convection unlike traditional radiators, so they won't function in this way. I don't think that's a worry for instruments so long as they aren't VERY close to the panel.
I'm intrigued. Probably a bit unsuited to my needs, but I'd be interested to hear how it works out with them Rob.
-
Rob,
It says your dogs will like it too!
That should settle the question.
Steve
-
Dogs? Not I!
Yes, Christian, they do sound interesting. We are tempted. The health benefits plus lower bills are good incentives.
-
It appears that the heat is produced by electricity, presumably through heating elements inside the panels. Not really so different from other heaters, just no fans to move the air. It likely won't be a quick way to get up to the desired temperature, but no electricity used to run fans. But the warmth needs to be circulated somehow, I suppose through normal air circulation in the house. Let us know how it goes.
-
It could be a while. We haven’t purchased the flat/apartment yet…but if we go ahead with the IR heaters, I’ll certainly share my experience here.
-
No they don't use air circulation - that's kind of the point as I understand it, they don't circulate heat through the house (which is less efficient apparently, no doubt depending on the quality of your insulation*). Instead, they heat a specific area illuminated (in IR) by the heat lamp/panel through radiation. Which is quite new to me. As I say, like you I would have imagined air circulation to be necessary for fast heat transport. Originally Posted by sgosnell
But apparently this technology has been used in other applications for a very long time.
Rob describes it very well in the his OP.
*most UK homes are poorly insulated.
-
Like Christian, I am also a physicist, of sorts. But it is my profession. I have to say he nailed it with his explanations. Rob - I feel the advice you received from the suppliers is entirely appropriate. Avoid direct exposure close to the radiant devices. Be aware there may always a temperature difference between a guitar and the air surrounding it. What this might do for tuning stability is a big unknown. As always, I could undertake a thorough study for you. Cost: only £500k over 3 years.
Can you wait that long?
Sent from my XQ-AS52 using Tapatalk
-
I'm not a physicist (or any other sort of scientist or engineer), but I took physics classes in school, which has given me the ability to ask ill-conceived questions ... Originally Posted by newsense
Like Christian, I am also a physicist, of sorts. But it is my profession. I have to say he nailed it with his explanations. Rob - I feel the advice you received from the suppliers is entirely appropriate. Avoid direct exposure close to the radiant devices. Be aware there may always a temperature difference between a guitar and the air surrounding it. What this might do for tuning stability is a big unknown. As always, I could undertake a thorough study for you. Cost: only £500k over 3 years.
Can you wait that long?
Sent from my XQ-AS52 using Tapatalk
Anyway ... you have a panel or something that emits IR photons. Those photons will warm up objects that are "line of sight" to the emitter. So how does the rest of the room get heated? I would think that a) the air between emitter and object would also get warmed up and begin moving faster than lower temperature air, resulting in convection currents. So too would the air that comes in contact with whatever else is warmed by the IR photons. So even though you don't have air circulation in the same sense you do with forced air system, you do have warm air moving around the room the way you do with a typical steam or hot water "radiator" (which is actually a convector), no? Also, isn't the relative humidity in the air (and hence its ability to dry out a guitar) simply a function of its temperature irrespective of what method is used to get it to that temperature?
I can see how a radiant system might be more efficient that a furnace + radiator system, and how it would be easier on the sinuses than a forced air system, but I don't see how it could work without some form of air circulation (via convection), and I don't see how it could be less drying than some other method of raising the air temperature. What am I missing?Last edited by John A.; 02-07-2024 at 05:49 PM.
-
I've been looking at these too recently, they're definitely interesting. One company makes bathroom mirrors that include an IR heating system - a nice complementary heater and no more condensation to deal with on that mirror!
The same company also sells a model that's designed as a personal heater that you can put under your desk. I didn't see any warnings that it should only be used with desks made of steel and/or composite materials and not old wooden desks.
Either way I don't think that the goal is to cook any person or other object in the room. Remember that thermostatic shower taps all have a security stop at 38°C, which is indeed warm enough for a shower (typically taken nude). We don't need that kind of temperature to feel cozy in a room; the IR radition doesn't have to heat anything beyond the desired ambient air temperature. My guess is that guitars can get quite a bit warmer where they enter into contact with us while being played.
From what I saw, using IR heaters exclusively does require proper insulation. Didn't get that at first, but typing this post it occurs to me that they'll heat the ambient air last. Meaning that until that moment, any air movement will undo the cozy feeling pretty easily because it'll be "cold" air. Plus you'll get a gradient that's not unlike sittng in front of a fire as the only heat source: one side can cook while the other side can feel freezing. Good thing those electric IR heaters don't suck in cold air
Interestingly the sales pitches I read claim that the heating goes faster because you don't first have to heat the air. The radiation itself should definetely travel fast enough to be felt instantaneously (in absence of too much dispersion). Originally Posted by Christian Miller
IIUC the old bathroom heaters consisting of a heating element like the ones you find in ovens also worked chiefly via IR. They're typically situated near the ceiling as a protection against accidents (but not against smart kids who think it funny to hit them with water pistol while taking their bath ... don't ask me how I know) so relying on circulating heated air probably wouldn't be very productive.
Forgot to quote the remark about hair dryers above, but don't just work with heat. The heat just speeds up the process but the main active principle is the blower which evacuates all evaporation. Along a similar vein, ambient heating that does not evolve circulating air will only drive down the RH if the actual humidity remains constant.
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale