Koch Little Gristle - Killer amp for intensive daily use in (and out) of jazz

[ruger9]

Sorry to hear it’s not your thing. As a suggestion, with all the amp’s controls at noon, use your 6120 on the neck pickup and then adjust the gain control until the amp breaks up just a little bit if you hit the strings hard. Then use the guitar’s tone control to adjust treble to taste. Works great for me.

As mentioned, I swapped the 12AX7 for a mil-spec NOS 12AU7. This makes the amp much cleaner and the quality of this old tube compared to a modern one also makes it sound a lot better.

Personally I love the liveliness of this amp, how 3D it sounds in the room and how it translates the woodiness of my guitars.

The 12AU7 is a great idea if all you want is jazzier tones out of this amp- but I want rock tones as well. I don't think an AU7 will do it. BUT... since Wildwood has a 48-hour return window I'm stuck with it LOL. The brightness is probably being exacerbated by the new/tight speaker... I'll probably swap in a couple other 12's I have sitting around, see if they will tighten up the low end and smooth out the high end a little.

Because I love everything else about it- 12" speaker, Gristle switch, MV that works well, even tho the reverb is subtle, it's gorgeous sounding. Built like a tank. Bigger cab for better low end. It's just too "Neil Young" for me when I try to get rock tones out of it. I'm looking for something smoother (like an old, beaten, vintage 5E3 sounds, with a speaker that's been pummeled for 70 years LOL)

[Oscar67]

With my fav pedals, the LG gives me better hardrock /metal tones than I’ve ever had. Percussive low end without being boomy and aggressive without biting my head off. By itself, the amp won’t go far into classic rock or metal territory.

[Jx30510]

Thanks for the tip.
I'll take a look.. if I find one. Very rare here in France.

[Jx30510]

Changing the V1 valve can do wonders. I always do that, with different power values (5751, AY7, AY7,.. ) or brands.
I've noticed that the higher the quality of the amp, the more they react to the change of the valve in the preamp.. less the power tubes.

[Jx30510]

I'm interested in the CARR Super Bee, but gosh are they expensive here (3300€ )
But having a good amp is so important.

[ruger9]

With my fav pedals, the LG gives me better hardrock /metal tones than I’ve ever had. Percussive low end without being boomy and aggressive without biting my head off. By itself, the amp won’t go far into classic rock or metal territory.

It'll do alot of classic rock, say into the 70s, but yes beyond that it needs help. I'm not looking for higher gain tones, I have a Bad Cat Hot Cat for those. But I'd love to have a 1x12 that will give me, say, Foreigner "Double Vision" levels of dirt (for example) all by itself. Usually Marshall territory I know, but I've never really gotten on with Marhsalls for some reason.

[ruger9]

I'm interested in the CARR Super Bee, but gosh are they expensive here (3300€ )
But having a good amp is so important.

I'm REALLY interested in the Carr Mercury V, it was going to be my next purchase until the Little Gristle popped up. In hindsight, even tho the Carr is almost 3x the cost, I would have been better served with it... I'll likely pick one up used after selling a few amps.

[Oscar67]

I’m listening to Grant Green’s Green Street album now and it’s so close to how this amp sounds with my hollowbodies… Love that album and that kind of tone.

[Spir4L]

If you haven't yet, you should look at the Swart stuff- specifically the AST- it sits right in-between tweed and blackface... it's got nice mids, but it's not ALL mids. Sounds great when pushed. I love mine.

I have got a STR Tremolo and I agree you should give a try to Swart amps

[ruger9]

OK, finally had some time to try the Little Gristle through 2 other speakers:


Eminence C-Rex, which I preferred over the OEM (the C-Rex was in a Hot Cat combo, which is an oversize 1x12)
Scumback M75 (a "Greenback" style), which I preferred a little more still (the M75 was in a Swart AST Master combo, which is an oversize 1x12)


BUT... the OEM isn't far off from them. It's a good choice. I'm sure it would be an equal once broken in. But the amp is voiced bright IMO. The "Extra" switch adds high end harmonics, which of course means high end. With that switch on, I found myself running the tone control off. With the Extra switch OFF, I ran the treble at 9:00. This is with a tele. To get my Swart equally bright I had to run it's tone control at 5 or so.


The Master Volume on the Koch works GREAT. Much better than the one on my AST Master. The reverb is nice but can only ever be subtle, it won't surf/get atmospheric. The Koch is voiced a little more "Fendery" to my ears (just like the Tungsten Crema Wheat and Cornell Romany): the Swart AST has mids the others just don't have. It's kind of hard to explain. It's not a huge difference, but it's there.


The Little Gristle is a great amp, and anyone looking into the "5E3 thing" should check it out. Especially if you wish it had a good master volume and/or reverb... that's basically what this ampm is. If I didn't have the Swart, I'd likely keep the Little Gristle. I've lusted after the Swart for 15 years, ever since I first heard GregV's sound clips of it. I could only recently afford one. So that's part of why I'm keeping it.


If I wanted a 5E3-style 1x12 for gigs, I'd choose the Koch over the Swart, due to it's tighter low end. I'd also probably choose the Tungsten over the Swart. But for home play, where the "sweetness" of tone matters, the Swart wins for me.

[Jx30510]

Thanks for the review.
I once had a 5e3 clone, and found it very agressive and "in your face". Which I didn't like very much, and for me was kind of the epitome of the "mid heavy" description.
I have a Gibson GA 8T clone, but if I understood well from the builder, is very accurate. It isn't as mid heavy as a 5e3 but still quite a lot.
If I use a Tube Screamer with the GA 8T, it gets very very mid and dark.
I'm saying this in reply to your comment saying the Swart is more "middy " than the Koch.. I once read that Swart amps are based on the Gibson GA series, so this makes sense.
I think I'm searching for an amp that is kind of mid scooped.. well I "think" that's what I have in mind. Maybe I'm wrong..
If the ultimate mid scoop design is the Fender Blackface circuit, and at the opposite is, say, a Hiwatt ear piercing mid heavy design.. maybe the Koch would be in the middle of the line ?
I think I'm just going to order one and test it. If I don't like it just send it back, even if I dont like doing that

[ruger9]

Thanks for the review.
I once had a 5e3 clone, and found it very agressive and "in your face". Which I didn't like very much, and for me was kind of the epitome of the "mid heavy" description.
I have a Gibson GA 8T clone, but if I understood well from the builder, is very accurate. It isn't as mid heavy as a 5e3 but still quite a lot.
If I use a Tube Screamer with the GA 8T, it gets very very mid and dark.
I'm saying this in reply to your comment saying the Swart is more "middy " than the Koch.. I once read that Swart amps are based on the Gibson GA series, so this makes sense.
I think I'm searching for an amp that is kind of mid scooped.. well I "think" that's what I have in mind. Maybe I'm wrong..

I know Michael Swart has publicly said the Gibson Scout was the "inspiration" for his first Swart: the 6V6se (5 watts), but someone who knows amps traced the AST and it's 95% 5E3 circuit. Swart tightened up the bass for one thing.

5E3s are great for jazz, just listen to Kenny Burrell's Midnight Blue album.

If you're looking for mid scooped, you should be looking at Fender blackface amps, like the Princeton, Deluxe, etc... altho I have never associated jazz tones with "mid scoop".

[Jx30510]

Yes I noticed engaging the Mid knob on many amps I owned would get me where the sound was very "jazzy". The DV Mark Jazz for instance.
I'm not sure the 5e3 clone I had was very well dialed in... It was harsh and very unforgiving to play. The guy who built it was very talented, but I suspect him to tweak the circuit to make it a screaming beast. When we tried it the first time he dimed the amp and told me "the volume knob of your guitar is the volume of the amp, that's what the real players used to do .. "
So not sure I really tried a real 5e3 circuit anyway

[Srini]

Thanks for the great review! I registered on this forum just to respond to your post

I bought a Little Gristle from Wildwood Guitars very late last year, and thought I'd give you all my two cents. I mostly agree with your assessment of Koch amps (I've had a couple over the years) being somewhat cold and sterile - I'm all about mojo, like you said. Right off the bat, I have two issues with the LG that most people will say are positive traits, and these are the only two issues I have. One, it can get loud enough to assassinate an elephant from a mile away (half a mile in the 4 watt position) and, two, it is heavy enough to sink an oil tanker cruising through the Straits of Hormuz. This 40-pound gorilla isn't exactly grab 'n go for a guy pushing 70, eh? I don't gig, and I bought it as a living room amp to play along with the TV - talk about overkill!

OK, with that out of the way, here's how I have it set up. First off, I moved it into my studio and set it up in 4CM with my Fractal FM3. This means that I can't really make an educated comment on the speaker, the cabinet or it's own recording output. However, I can tell you that plugging the speaker out into a Suhr Reactive Load, then into the DAW - with just a smidgeon of reverb, delay and chorus (often bypassed) after the cab block - all knobs pretty much at noon (Master at 3 O'Clock), with a little "seasoning" to taste, this amp is as sweet as could be. I can think of a couple of other amps that were as good in this setup, but none better - so good that I sold my recording amp.

As for the tone I'm going for, the jazz tone you describe is absolutely one of them. My only pushback to what you mentioned is that I can get pretty close with a mostly traditionally configured Strat (HSH/alder/maple/rosewood), and even closer with another Strat with the same pickups (chambered mahogany/redwood/rosewood). For me, the key is finding the right high-end roll-off on the guitar, but it's definitely doable. Another tone I bond with (probably my primary tone) is the tweedy edge-of-breakup-bordering-on-nasty voice that responds to touch and cleans up easily using the guitar volume (sort of Kid Charlemagne era Carlton?). Personally, I'm happy to report that the LG nails that tone to a T. In this situation, the bridge pickup on the non-chambered Strat is a far better fit. In both cases, though, the tone is eminently musical. I'm waiting to get my third guitar back soon, with EMGs (SSS/alder/one-piece roasted maple), and I'll report back on how that sounds.

Right now, I haven't started tube rolling yet, but of course, you just know I'm going to! I have a very tiny stash of NOS samples I'd like to try out. I've wondered about lowering the V1 gain to clean it up a bit, so I might try out a Mullard CV4024 (or a JAN Philips AT7)...I have a couple of 5751s, a couple of AYs, and a couple of 6189s (AU, right?). I've usually found that amps lose some of their punch when I do that, but it may be worth experimenting. I'm also curious about the power tube situation. I'm not averse to the EL34 per se (though I admit I can't stand EL84s), but I have a JAN Philips 6L6WGB (I do believe that's really a 5881, but I could be wrong), and an RCA blackplate 6V6. Might be fun to try those out, but I'm really curious about the bigger bottles that you can supposedly try - like the KTs. I'm very interested in any experiments anybody has done.

Thanks for reading!

Srini

[Oscar67]

Thanks for chiming in, Srini! I enjoyed reading your input.

[ruger9]

Mine has been back in it's box, in my garage, since I first tested it. Plan to sell it. The one thing I want to try though before I sell it is to plug the LG into my Swart speaker, since it is well broken-in. I'd like to know how much of the stiffness and treble bite are due to the new speaker in the LG. Because it does seem like the perfect forum/function for me, but "lack of mojo" (which includes the stiffness and slight harsh high end I'm speaking of) keeps me from liking it... liking it enough to keep playing it and break in that speaker, anyway. Especially when I have a Swart AST sitting here. If I can't get the LG to, on it's own, sound as good as the Swart with a Hot Cake overdrive pedal, it's going.... because that's what I'm looking for: great overdrive WITHOUT having to use a pedal. The Swart can't do that either.

[Srini]

Mine has been back in it's box, in my garage, since I first tested it. Plan to sell it. The one thing I want to try though before I sell it is to plug the LG into my Swart speaker, since it is well broken-in. I'd like to know how much of the stiffness and treble bite are due to the new speaker in the LG. Because it does seem like the perfect forum/function for me, but "lack of mojo" (which includes the stiffness and slight harsh high end I'm speaking of) keeps me from liking it... liking it enough to keep playing it and break in that speaker, anyway. Especially when I have a Swart AST sitting here. If I can't get the LG to, on it's own, sound as good as the Swart with a Hot Cake overdrive pedal, it's going.... because that's what I'm looking for: great overdrive WITHOUT having to use a pedal. The Swart can't do that either.

Interesting! As I mentioned in the OP, I can't comment on the speaker, but it looks like your Swart speaker experiment should prove your point. I, too, often distrust combos that use "designed for XYZ" speakers, as opposed to the real thing. People have interesting subjective responses to speakers. I was watching Joe Bonamassa during one of his Rig Rundown videos in which he said he hated his Dumbles at first (an experience that is certainly not going to occur in my lifetime, or what's left of it, anyway!) because of the EVs - and these are the speakers that Alexander supposedly specifically paired with his amps. Then, Joe said that once he put Celestions in them, he was thrilled. I'm most likely far less discerning than you are, but perhaps one way to test this would be through IRs? Then again, if you don't use IRs on a regular basis, that method may not resonate with you.

Regarding overdrive, I'm not sure this type of amp is designed for great overdrive beyond the edge of breakup zone (I suspect the Swart isn't either, as you mentioned), but I have personally solved it by using one of Fractal's great OD pedal models in front of the amp in my 4CM preset. Then again, my idea of great OD typically stops at edge of breakup, so there's that..

I'm curious about how your speaker experiment works out. Also, if you - or anyone else - has any thoughts about the output tube, I'm all ears; 6L6/5881? KT77? 6CA7?

Srini

[ruger9]

Interesting! As I mentioned in the OP, I can't comment on the speaker, but it looks like your Swart speaker experiment should prove your point. I, too, often distrust combos that use "designed for XYZ" speakers, as opposed to the real thing. People have interesting subjective responses to speakers. I was watching Joe Bonamassa during one of his Rig Rundown videos in which he said he hated his Dumbles at first (an experience that is certainly not going to occur in my lifetime, or what's left of it, anyway!) because of the EVs - and these are the speakers that Alexander supposedly specifically paired with his amps. Then, Joe said that once he put Celestions in them, he was thrilled. I'm most likely far less discerning than you are, but perhaps one way to test this would be through IRs? Then again, if you don't use IRs on a regular basis, that method may not resonate with you.

Regarding overdrive, I'm not sure this type of amp is designed for great overdrive beyond the edge of breakup zone (I suspect the Swart isn't either, as you mentioned), but I have personally solved it by using one of Fractal's great OD pedal models in front of the amp in my 4CM preset. Then again, my idea of great OD typically stops at edge of breakup, so there's that..

I'm curious about how your speaker experiment works out. Also, if you - or anyone else - has any thoughts about the output tube, I'm all ears; 6L6/5881? KT77? 6CA7?

Srini

I like EL34s, so I wouldn't be interested in swapping the power tube out. EL34s, in general, give a thick, meaty tone. Which is what I am also after. The EL34 is one of the reasons I took a chance on the LG.

Not interested in swapping preamp tubes, LESS gain is not what I'm looking for. I guess what I really want is a 5E3 tweed Deluxe sound (cranked), but without the overbearing bass response. My Swart sounds great, but doesn't overdrive like a 5E3. Not sure about the Gristle. Also I own a Tungsten Crema Wheat, which is a 5E3 but with tighter bass and more headroom. The demo video by GregV (posted below) is what got me on this "perfect 5E3 quest"... tho I can say the Tungsten does NOT sound like it does in the video... so that's all GregV, and his playing style, that makes the amp sound like that. He plays without a pick, that has something to do with it.

But the tones in this video, and the responsiveness of the circuit, and the cleanup using the guitars volume knob, are what a perfect amp sounds like to me...
(I have gotten very favorable results with my Swart, using a Hot Cake pedal... that pedal is very amp-like, and also responds very well to the guitar's volume control...)

[Srini]

I like EL34s, so I wouldn't be interested in swapping the power tube out. EL34s, in general, give a thick, meaty tone. Which is what I am also after. The EL34 is one of the reasons I took a chance on the LG.

Not interested in swapping preamp tubes, LESS gain is not what I'm looking for.....

I'm with you on both counts. That said, I do like the 6L6 sound as well, so it would be nice if I could get a "best of both worlds" setup. They say that a KT77 can straddle those two worlds, depending on the brand you get, as can a 6CA7. I'm open to experimenting, so I'll do it if it's safe to do. I have a message in to Koch to make sure I can do these swaps; I'll keep you posted.

As for V1, I'm completely with you there, but I think I will try the CV4024. The reason is that I used to own a Gries 5 head many moons ago (a GREAT amp, by the way!), which has a comparable tube complement (one 12AX7 and one 6V6, but capable of taking a 6L6). I found the amp to be a tad anemic until I put in a CV4024 and a TAD 6L6 - not only could I push the amp harder while staying clean, but the breakup, when it happened, was a lot sweeter.

I'm hoping for some such aha moment here...

Srini

[ruger9]

I'm hoping for some such aha moment here...

Srini

I've had them, tweaking both guitars and amps (and even a couple of pedals!) over the years, in an effort to get them EXACTLY as I want them to be.

After years of following this approach, I have decided it's not worth it. I'm not above swapping tubes or speakers or pickups. But at some point I decided if I don't at least REALLY LIKE something out-of-the-box, I'm not going to bend over backwards trying to mold it into what I want. If it's already 90% there, sure.

Even with my Swart... I put in the same speaker that the Tungsten has, tried many different tubes, some NOS, and even changed the bias resistor to get the amp back to the EARLY Swart amp specs (which is the amp I fell in love with at a guitar shop many years ago). All this DID make a difference... but no more than a 10% difference. The Little Gristle is not even at 90% for me out-of-the-box, so I'm not willing to go to far with it; as I know only so much change can be effective. It's funny because, I LOVE the way it sounds when Greg Koch plays his, but mine doesn't sound like that when I play it. So while it IS the amp for him, it's likely not the for ME. "Tone is in the hands" is a statement that is widely debated, but IMO, based on many years of gear, is very true. How you play and TOUCH the strings is paramount in tone production. Which is why I can't make the Tungsten sound like GregV or the Little Gristle sound like Greg Koch.

[Oscar67]

…the stiffness and treble bite…

It’s interesting how perception can vary. I bought this amp because it’s not stiff, old, sterile or overly trebly ;-). But I mostly play fingerstyle and I seem to have a mellow attack. When using a pick or when playing a trebly instrument, I turn the LG’s tone knob down to 9 o’clock or even less and/or I turn the gain knob up until the amp just starts to get a little hair. Both these knobs do the same thing: tone down means less highs, gain up means less highs and beefy bass. Of course gain also adds gain. With these two controls and the volume and tone controls on the guitar I can get any tone. It’s an addictive little amp, I find myself using my other amps less…

[Srini]

It’s interesting how perception can vary. I bought this amp because it’s not stiff, old, sterile or overly trebly ;-). But I mostly play fingerstyle and I seem to have a mellow attack. When using a pick or when playing a trebly instrument, I turn the LG’s tone knob down to 9 o’clock or even less and/or I turn the gain knob up until the amp just starts to get a little hair. Both these knobs do the same thing: tone down means less highs, gain up means less highs and beefy bass. Of course gain also adds gain. With these two controls and the volume and tone controls on the guitar I can get any tone. It’s an addictive little amp, I find myself using my other amps less…

I just spent some quality time with the LG, prepping for my first tube roll experiment (starting with the stock 12AX7, looks like an EH 7025; and I can't recognize the EL34 brand inside the cage). I have to say that I'm personally not experiencing any stiffness or sterility. In fact, even the treble situation was absent, but then I discovered that I had my Strat neck pickup tone rolled off to about 6. That sounded just gorgeous. Everything on the LG was set to noon, no "extra gristle", full power mode....as neutral as could be. With the Strat volume rolled down to about 7, neck tone to about 6, I can get a nice, sweet clean tone with some peach-fuzz hair on it. I can't even begin to describe the "warm-fuzzies". Then, if I turn the volume all way up, it crunches beautifully, but manages to retain it's clean character if you pick lightly - however, there are more highs. Maybe a treble bleed on the volume control could fix that, because you could then turn down the tone knob on the amp. But I actually prefer regular volume pots precisely because of that subtle high end roll-off when you turn down the volume,.

The extra gristle switch intensifies the grind for sure, but never goes into full-on OD territory. I love this tone to bits - so expressive and 70's/80's era Carlton-esque on the bridge pickup (bridge tone rolled down to 4).

I'll try to find some time this evening to try the 4024 which means it will be cleaner, so I'll hopefully be able to drive the EL34 harder and get it to clip. Then, I also have the RCA blackplate 6V6 queued up. It's possible that combo will go into creamy overdrive, but we shall see. As I'm sure everybody here realizes, getting to that sweet spot where you get right proportions of preamp tube and power tube OD is not necessarily trivial. If Koch tech support (or one of you guys!) gives me the green light to go ahead and try out the 6V6 and the 6L6WGB, I'll give it a shot and report back.

Srini

[Srini]

Here are a couple of things I tried this afternoon.

1. I actually could not identify the 12AX7 that came with the amp, though it definitely sounded good. The EL34 is a TAD Redbase, and it seems to get decent reviews. I love the sound overall, so no complaints there. For now, I'm going to leave it in until I settle on V1, which I think I may have.
2. The Mullard CV4024 (or, 12AT7), is significantly cleaner and barely pushes the EL34 into OD. The amp begins to crunch when the extra gristle switch is on, but I'm guessing that's preamp OD. With gristle at noon and the switch on, I need to get the master to beyond 3 O'clock for a decent grind. It sounds wonderful at this point, but not in a tweedy, grindy way - it's still more clean than breakup. That said, it is a beautiful tone - very full bodied, sweet, and when you roll the guitar volume down to about 7, very warm and jazzy. My neck tone is usually between 6 and 7. So, my sense is that if you're going to a jazz gig and you know that you're not going to need to crunch, this is a great option.
3. I pulled out the CV4024 and put in a JAN Philips 12AX7, which is my favorite tone so far. It definitely pushes harder and causes the amp to break up sooner. Even with the extra gristle switch off, it breaks up with all amp controls at noon, the master perhaps at 1 O'clock. Bringing the master up to 3 O'clock doesn't seem to change that grind that much, but bringing it back to where it was, then either putting the extra grind switch on or turning up the gristle to maybe 3 O'clock, and bringing the guitar volume up to 10 - that, to me, is a very, very legit OD tone; on the far end of edge of breakup, I'd say. I'm guessing this is preamp OD as well..??

Right now, I'm enjoying this tone so much that I'm not very motivated to change anything else, but I might try the 6L6 just for fun at some point. I have a feeling that a KT77, or a 6CA7, is not likely to deliver a dramatic change in tone - but I may do it at some point, once I figure out which brand to buy. These days, though, I'm not convinced that NOS really matters all that much, especially in testing.

Sorry if this post hasn't broken any new ground, but I suspect it may have confirmed what everybody already knows. If anything, it confirms in my mind that the LG is a pretty damn good amp!

Srini

[Jx30510]

I'm not sure I really understood. You can put a 6V6 in place of the EL34 right off the bat in this amp??
Thanks for all this great information. The Little Gristle got out of my interest for a while, until the few posts here that gets me interested into it again.
Since my last post here I tried, in my amp quest, a Tone King Falcon Grande, which I didn't like at all. Way too bassy, and very overpriced to me.
So a 6V6 can be a direct swap in this Koch?

[Srini]

I'm not sure I really understood. You can put a 6V6 in place of the EL34 right off the bat in this amp??
Thanks for all this great information. The Little Gristle got out of my interest for a while, until the few posts here that gets me interested into it again.
Since my last post here I tried, in my amp quest, a Tone King Falcon Grande, which I didn't like at all. Way too bassy, and very overpriced to me.
So a 6V6 can be a direct swap in this Koch?

Apparently so. The user manual lists a few possible substitutes for the EL34, including 6L6, 5881 and 6V6. Your concern about this swap is exactly the reason I'm not doing it yet. I've sent in a question to Koch tech support.

Srini