Dearmon Rhythm Chief 1100 Reissue, low output?

[raban]

Hello everyone,
I've installed a Dearmond RC1100 reissue pickup on an archtop. I find that it has a rather weak output. When I compare it to a SD Seth Lover Humbucker on my other archtop, the volume difference is very obvious (with the same set of strings, Thomastik Bebops) and I need to turn up the amp much more to reach a similar volume.
It sounds good otherwise, it is installed correctly as far as I can judge and string distance is about what it should be.
It just seems to be a bit too weak... As it is the first RC Pickup I've installed I am not sure if it does what it should do.
Can anybody confirm this from their own experience?
Thanks for your help in advance!

[sgosnell]

It is weaker than some humbuckers, as are many other single-coil pickups, but not noticeably weaker than some others. All pickups vary in output, depending on the magnets, wire, number of turns, cover, and maybe how the winder was holding his tongue during the winding process. I like the RC-1100 fairly close to the strings, because I think it sounds better there, but distance does affect volume, more than one might expect, and it's the same for all pickups, although high-output humbuckers are affected somewhat less by small distance differences, because they're so strong in the first place.

[ThatRhythmMan]

The reissues are not made as internal reproductions of the originals. While it’s definitely not the only measure of output, the resistance measurement is very different. The reissues average 6.6k while the originals are often in the 14-15k range. Here is one from the ‘60s.




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[Doctor Jeff]

The reissues are not made as internal reproductions of the originals. While it’s definitely not the only measure of output, the resistance measurement is very different. The reissues average 6.6k while the originals are often in the 14-15k range. Here is one from the ‘60s.




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Wow that’s interesting…wonder why? From what I’ve read they’re made virtually identically to the old pickups.

I have an RC1000 on my Harmony Brilliant Cutaway. It’s kind of quirky, string output not as balanced as most pickups. (I believe that was common in the 1950’s btw—have read the same about Tele neck pickups.) I have D’Addario Pure Nickels on mine, and they seem to work OK. I have mine hooked up to Schatten thumb wheel pots btw—500K resistance.

[ThatRhythmMan]

The pickup is right there under the control box. It’s an 1100, and yes, is being measured by plugging into the control box. The originals have a reading that is much higher than the reissues.


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[raban]

Thanks for the replies.
I'm aware of the difference between single coils and humbuckers, I've installed and played many different pickups. Still, this one seems weak...

Regarding string balance I think that the RC1100 also is a bit unbalanced - although it is built differently than the RC1000. Although there are the adjustable pole pieces I find it difficult to get a balance between strings.

[sgcim]

Do you really think you're gonna get the same P/U that sells for 10x the price as the 'repro's'.

[Doug B]

If it's mainly the lower level that you're concerned about, try using a clean boost pedal like the Xotic Super Sweet. Just a thought.

[deacon Mark]

I have a reproduction 1000 and it sounds great. I have real deals on a number of other guitars. Not a huge difference at all. To me it works great at about 1/4th the price. I will measure the output and report back.

[ThatRhythmMan]

If it's mainly the lower level that you're concerned about, try using a clean boost pedal like the Xotic Super Sweet. Just a thought.

I’ve used a JHS Clover preamp/boost with low output 1930-1940s Charlie Christian pickups with fantastic results. I bet it would do the same for a DeArmond if desired.


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[sgosnell]

String balance is affected by the strings being used, and by distance of the pickup from the strings. The closer the pickup is to the strings, the worse the balance. Lowering the pickup can help balance the string volumes, but it also affects the overall volume, so it requires a compromise, finding the height that has the best balance and volume for the individual player. Different pickups of the same brand/model can have different outputs, and that's just unavoidable, IME. The RC1100 polepieces are not as adjustable as those in full-size humbuckers, because the pickup is much thinner, and it's not possible to get the polepieces down inside the pickup. The B string is inevitably louder than the others. It's possible to remove that polepiece, but IME it's not a great solution, because it's ugly and doesn't have a huge effect. Using a smaller B string does help. For wound strings, I like plain steel wound or Monel better than bronze or pure nickel, but the balance is still somewhat iffy because there isn't much adjustment possible with the polepieces. They can come up a lot, but they can't go down very far before they bottom out. In fact, they seem to come as low as they can go. It's just a design limitation, with its own advantages, allowing the RC pickups to work on guitars which can't accept thicker pickups because of string height limitations. Everything is a compromise of some sort. One can accept the limitations of the DeArmond pickups or change pickups. The archtop police won't raid you either way.

[joelf]

Sorry for your trouble, and now a bit worried b/c I'm having one installed on a knockaround guitar. The luthier is good, and the axe's acoustic sound is cool.

We'll see...

[raban]

Still, it is a good sounding pickup. When I play it through a Quilter SBUS here at home, I have to turn the volume close to 12 o'clock to reach a similar volume that i get with the SD Seth Lover at 9 o'clock (both guitars with same strings). Quite a difference. With a tele (neck pickup) I have to set the volume about 10 'clock to reach similar volume.
I use Thomastik Bebop 12 strings. I tried Martin Monels 12 a few weeks ago but they sounded much weaker and not really usable for me.

[sgosnell]

Well, that's why they put volume controls on the amp and the guitar. You can turn up the volume, or get a hotter pickup. I don't know what else to tell you.

[raban]

Well, that's why they put volume controls on the amp and the guitar. You can turn up the volume, or get a hotter pickup.

Yes, I am aware of that.

[RJVB]

Do you really think you're gonna get the same P/U that sells for 10x the price as the 'repro's'.

Well, for starters you're not going to get an old, rare real-real PU if you buy an off-the-shelf (or built-to-order or whatever) reissue.

[sgcim]

Well, for starters you're not going to get an old, rare real-real PU if you buy an off-the-shelf (or built-to-order or whatever) reissue.

Isn't that what I said?

[RJVB]

Isn't that what I said?

You tell me... to me it read like you consider it evident that the much cheaper reissue can't be using the same internal design (but maybe that's because I was reading through the whole thread rather than following the exchange).

[Spook410]

- All the reports I've seen on the new ones say they sound pretty much like the old ones. What people pay for old stuff is influenced by many factors. Also, these were out of production for quite awhile.

- Thanks for your comments Raban. I have one of the new ones to install and I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do with it so your recent experience helps. Adding a lot of extra gain is certainly possible, but usually not desirable. And I didn't know about the string balance issues.

- Is it possible these pickups are more fussy about strings than most and prefer something more in the electric camp like chromes? Wound 3rd or no?

[raban]

Spook, these are just my observations and I started this thread because I want to know if other people made similar experiences regarding perceived output. Maybe some more guys will share theirs...

Regarding string balance: after having a Bendedetto S6 floater (mini humbucker) and a Vintage Vibe CC (single coil) on this guitar it seems to me that with this pu it is more difficult to get a good string balance, although you have the adjustable pole pieces. But I still have to experiment with pu distance to strings (which is such a fun thing to do with floaters...).
As I said, using Martin retro monels resulted in obviously weaker output. They have a wound G string, so B string is loudest. The TI Bebop 12 that I currently use have a plain G string, so there G string is loudest...
I haven't tried the pu with flatwounds yet.

[sgosnell]

Heavier strings will give more output, but that's not something everyone is willing to do.

One thing that can cause weak output is a poor solder joint. If the connection between the pickup and the volume control is a cold joint, the voltage can be reduced, and it's not very high with a perfect joint. I have no idea about the OP's soldering, just saying that it can, in general, make a difference.

I have no problem getting adequate string balance, with any alloy I've tried, and I've tried most, including phosphor bronze, 80/20, monel, 'pure nickel', and nickel-plated steel. Some adjustment is necessary when switching between them, but I can get a balance that is acceptable to me. As I said above, the biggest issue for me is that the pickup is so thin, and the polepieces can't go down through the bottom, so there is a definite limit as to how low the polepieces can be adjusted. I suppose it might be possible to cut off the polepiece under the B string to make it shorter, and thus reduce its output, but that's more than I'm willing to do.