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An old friend and very accomplished guitarist (blues, rock, etc but never jazz) decided to buy an archtop. He found what he says the label indicates is a MIK AF-75 but the ad called an AG-75 (Reverb ad here) and bought it for $300 delivered. When it arrived, he described it by phone as in solid shape but a bit dirty with a lot of playing wear. There were no major flaws and no cracks or evident damage, even though it was shipped in a gig bag padded with paper in a cardboard carton padded with paper. It had heavy enough strings that the 3rd was wound, but he won't play heavier than 10-48 or so. He unstrung it, cleaned it up, and set it up for the lighter set he prefers.
He adjusted the trussrod to remove some relief, telling me that it was "a bit tight" but that he was able to loosen it first, then tighten it to get the relief he wanted without apparent mishap. He did tighten it as far as he wanted at one sitting, rather than taking it slowly and letting it settle overnight and making incremental adjustmnts over a few days. He says it felt "normal" once he got past the initial tightness, but I don't know if he's done this enough to know what's normal and what's too tight. This was Saturday, if I understand the timeline correctly - but it might have been 3 days ago.
It seemed fine to him afterward, with good action and intonation. But this morning, he picked it up and found the cracks pictured below. The neck feels stable to him. He lives about an hour from me, so I haven't seen the instrument myself. He tells me that the truss rod has an internal Allen head and was "pretty far down" in the rod channel - but he has no prior experience for reference.
He has until Wednesday to return it but is not going to so so if it's likely to have been his fault. I think the rod could have been all the way in, so that forcing it further might have caused the damage by spreading the funnel opening into the rod channel. But it's also possible that this was a headstock blow that left an internal crack that was widened and/or propogated by tightening the rod further. I don't know how the heel end of the rod is secured, so there could be a problem there too.
Any helpful input would be greatly appreciated!
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12-11-2023 04:18 PM
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Totally and absolutely a trauma induced shock that split the neck along a grain line. That is not a guitar you even want to go through a repair if you can send it back.
That guitar took a shock in transit somewhere.
I'm sorry to say, do not bother. That's someone else's headache. There are SO many reasons and ways that even a well done repair can haunt you and you have no idea if it was even 100% right before it failed.
My opinion as someone who has seen way too much of this kind of thing, on the QC line of Hoshino and as a luthier with 3 decades of craft.
Send it back. Get your money back. Start again with a clean start.
Good luck
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it's been a bit cold lately though not overly so but I'd have let it acclimate a day or so before making any adjustments.
I'd blacklight it to see if there was possibly something going on there previously
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He knows better and followed good practice. This is from his "on arrival" email:
Originally Posted by wintermoon
"Letting it warm up, it was cold and detuned."
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Well, I'd still blacklight it but failing that he's probably stuck w it unfortunately.
The first shots look like lacquer cracks but the last pic looks like there's a break, hopefully not and he'll just have to live w the lacquer stress cracks.
I know I wouldn't be happy about a return under these circumstances.
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Yeah - I hear you! He asked for my advice, so I'm trying to put together a reasoned and well supported suggestion. If it were mine, I'd try to return it - but I suspect that'll be a difficult negotiation. Even if the truss rod was at fault or it suffered a fall earlier in its life, it's not a private seller's fault unless he knew and failed to disclose the information. Very few people who buy a $500 guitar new or a $300 guitar used get that deeply into it. Most such guitars are never set up properly and the truss rod is never touched unless the neck gets really bad. So proving that there was a hidden but known defect is near impossible to do. On the other hand, if he'd gotten it from a dealer and had a satisfaction guarantee, I'd expect it to be taken back. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I feel terrible for him. I supported the purchase because that model is a great entry level archtop that's giggable and will last many years with minimal maintenance if it's in good shape and nothing bad happens to it. He was looking at a Washburn with a headstock that was completely painted - even over the inlays. It just screamed "I was broken!!" to me and I strongly urged him not to buy it. When this AF came along, I thought it was a great choice for him. I did caution him to make sure he had a solid return privilege, but I never expected this.
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The way it was shipped sounds like it would make it vulnerable to damage on the route. Everything that happens to the guitar is the sellers responsibility until it's in the hands of the buyer. So if it got damaged in shipping, that's the seller's problem. If the seller insured the guitar when shipping it, then there is some protection around that for both parties.
But if the buyer damaged it, then that's a different story. I'm not clear as to whether or not it had those cracks at the headstock before the truss rod was adjusted. I feel bad for your friend, but he may have done this. If he managed to wedge the truss rod nut into the channel between the fingerboard and the neck, he may have forced them apart and the stress followed the grain line in the mahogany.
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I respect your view Cunamara, but from my experience, I've never seen a neck implosion caused by overtightening- I HAVE seen stripping the threads- before a truss rod would implode a neck. FAR more likely that the need for any adjustment resulted when the truss rod was suddenly given too much slack through the breach rendering the channel/rod function useless. Originally Posted by Cunamara
Slack the tension off the rod, let it de-tension, note any changes, return the guitar.
Transit damage on a tensioned guitar is a real thing. Was the guitar de-tuned when it was shipped?
Any shock, including the box being dropped even from a short distance, even lying flat, could cause that kind of break.
I have never in all my years split a neck through over tightening a truss rod. I've had to use a pipe to create a handle long enough to slack a truss rod wrench. I've seen the kind of stress a man handled truss rod can take and impart. Never seen one split a neck like that. That, and the fact that this came right after unpacking, ...there's no doubt in my mind what happened.
On the inspection line at Ibanez, we inspected every single guitar entering the US from all over the world. Number one and first point of inspection: Look SPECIFICALLY for those tell tale poly cracks you see clearly beneath the nut. Only one thing leaves the kind of marks you see there-shipping damage where the neck experienced a drop-body went one way, headstock flexed the other. We spot this and the guitar is rejected on the spot. End of story.
If anything, I'd be grateful that the damage was revealed at the beginning. It might not be such a clear case to make if he'd tightened it up and revealed the split in a month's time.
My opinion, and only my opinion.
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He said it was detuned for shipment in post #4, but I agree with the shock theory. I don't see how adjusting the truss rod could give those cracks. The direction of the cracks indicates impact damage to me.
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JBN, you've got decades of professional experience in guitars while I have decades of professional experience... not in guitars. Your opinion is worth way more than mine! Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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The world is full of opinions and life is full of perspectives. I always value what you have to say and your presence on this forum. Let's hope the outcome turns out best for this guy either way! Poor guy, there's nothing worse than getting psyched for a NGD and finding catastrophe. On that we ALL agree. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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UPDATE: Yesterday, he took it to a local guitar tech (an old friend of both of us) who's done his work for years. He attempted to twist and bend the neck for several minutes without feeling or seeing any movement or further separation. So he concluded that this is only finish cracking and that the guitar is stable. I haven't seen it myself, so (like all of you) I only know what I was told and what I see in the pictures. The location and angulation of those lines seems to me to indicate an underlying flex / twist / bend that stressed the wood fibers but did not rupture enough to cause a frank break. It's bilateral, fairly symmetric, and in exactly the right place. And it starts at the nut slot. If this is correct, even another minor blow is likely to open it further. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
The world is full of opinions and life is full of perspectives. I always value what you have to say and your presence on this forum. Let's hope the outcome turns out best for this guy either way! Poor guy, there's nothing worse than getting psyched for a NGD and finding catastrophe. On that we ALL agree.
No, wintermoon, it was not blacklighted. I have a little UV flashlight that I use to cure LOCA, so I could check it - but his tech toild him it wasn't necessary. I don't know how useful black light is on poly - my only experience with it is looking for overspray or respray on nitro. I do wonder if UV could differentiate a crack limited to the poly (which is pretty thick) from one in the underlying wood.
Based on this, he decided not to try to return it. He bought it from a private seller on Reverb and he'd already told the seller how happy he was with it the day after he got it. These lines appeared a few days later (2 days after he tightened the truss rod). There would admittedly be an inevitable argument over whether it's anything more than cosmetic and what the underlying cause may have been (shipping damage from long ago or from the trip here last week, unskilled trussrod adjustment, opening it too fast after receiving it, or something else). With the judgment of a tech that it's stable, a drawn out battle over a $300 guitar doesn't seem worth it to him. So he's seeking a partial refund.
He'd asked me for advice when those marks developed. I offered to post it here, and he was enthusiastic about doing so. He thanks everybody for your interest and input (as do I). It's been an educational thread and experience for sure. He'll be sitting in with us in 2 weeks, so I'll get to see the guitar then and will report back.
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I stand with my opinion that something is amiss. Any respectable seller should know that first impressions can be revised within the first few days, that's why that policy is as it is. Those kinds of finish checks don't appear out of nowhere and they are CLEAR indications that there is a discrepancy between the finish and the wood beneath. Yes, a luthier may have not been able to cause a separation by hand but that doesn't mean the wood has the integrity it was meant to have. I'm shaking my head, but good luck to your friend with his new guitar. If anything should happen to it, take it to that luthier and remind him that the decision to purchase that guitar was based upon his diagnosis that there was no issue.
I never would have given that advice, not with an option to return it and be assured the next purchase would have no questions at all.
Good luck to your friend. It seems that he's already in love and willing to overlook what seems is a clear red light warning. Ah love.
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For me, this is an example of the added value a luthier (or, at the very least, someone with deep experience under the hood) brings to evaluation of structural and other occult problems. Most guitar techs I’ve met take a very pragmatic approach and are less sensitive to probabilities than I am. Grabbing and yanking on a headstock is not a definitive diagnostic maneuver. I think the probability that this guitar has a major weakness in the neck / headstock area from prior trauma is high enough to warrant attention (and to keep me from buying it). I hope I’m wrong, but hope is a lousy plan. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
I don’t think my friend is in love with it. I think he’s being practical from his point of view. Trying to return this to a private seller will be a drawn out process with no predictable endpoint, and the probability (there’s that word again) of a simple return with full refund is low. I suspect he’s decided that this combines with the possibility that the guitar will be playable for at least a while (or until the next changeover from heat to A/C makes a truss rod adjustment necessary) to justify a $300 “bet”.
Time will tell.
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I missed the $300 purchase price mentioned in the first post, heck that's less than a refret..
Glad there's a semi happy ending but refresh my memory, what's the reasoning behind seeking a partial refund if the damage appeared 2 days after receiving it once it was adjusted?
As I said before if it showed up like that I could see it but wouldn't be happy as a seller under the current circumstances.
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Isn't there some kind of "Not as described" clause that covers damage in transit?
I know if I buy something on Ebay and it's been damaged in transit, I'm covered if I make a convincing and documented argument.
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From what I gathered reading the op the damage occurred after the buyer attempted to adjust the truss rod but nshsi will probably clarify things. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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I’m just guessing, but I think he sees a partial refund as appropriate compensation for the risk of keeping it. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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I see how that may seem, but I'm reading it as something happened during shipping to change the "Fully reliable" status before it arrived at the buyer's door. I read it that the truss rod adjustment, which should NEVER have caused that kind of shear fracture, exacerbated an issue that wasn't an issue before a momentary trauma in transit. Originally Posted by wintermoon
That's the way I read the situation.
Shipping a guitar is not without risk. It has as much to do with the integrity of the delivery workers (at holiday time, no less) as it does how well it was packed. And too, many owners simply don't know how to OVERPACK a guitar to protect it from the worst impact oopsies. Headstock wedged immobile inside the case by foam inserts...body COMPLETELY immobile, neck and fingerboard fully immobile inside foam inserts...
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…and there’s the rub. We all think the actual damage occurred before the guitar was delivered. But it could have happened at any time between its original release for sale when new and its trip to Philadelphia last week. Originally Posted by wintermoon
If there is real damage to the wood, it probably started as an internal weakness (stretched and torn wood fibers not quite severe enough to cause a frank separation) from a blow or fall. Wood is elastic enough to resume a form very close to its pre-deformation dimensions and shape, especially if the damage is only internal and along grain lines (as observed in someone's earlier post). If there’s intact wood all the way around the damage, trying to twist or bend the headstock on the neck is probably futile. It’d probably require force from within to distend the intact wood around the damaged area and bring the flaw to the surface. Enter the truss rod stage center.
The fact that surface cracks appeared within 1 or 2 days of tightening the truss rod supports this hypothesis. My friend has little experience with truss rod trouble. So I don’t know if his assessment of the force needed to turn it was accurate when he thought it was a bit tight. Most amateurs just use a bigger hammer and assume things are fine if nothing broke or went wrong.
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My first reaction to this post was to think that the cracks were already there, and somehow you're friend didn't see them. But I guess it's plausible that tightening the rod caused cracks that were already there deeper inside the neck to propagate outward. However, if the neck was intact before he adjusted the trussrod, I don't see how tightening could cause the split on its own. I've heard of overtightening the rod causing the fingerboard to separate or the rod to break, but not that. I honestly don't see how this guitar couldn't have been damaged from the get-go. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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