An apology...

[joelf]

I received a note from a gentleman from Toob, objecting---rightfully---to my negative comments on their product. Plus, as he correctly pointed out, it was the head---not the Toob speaker, and from a different manufacturer---that I didn't like so much. The sound generates from there, and the speaker only brings out what's already there, as we all know.

I only gave my opinion---and admit to being a person of strong and perhaps impatient opinions. I certainly didn't mean to bad-mouth any product or company. This man and Peter Henriksen really care about the quality of their products and the approval of them by us, and do a great job.The amps just didn't speak to me, simple as that.

On the Web we're in a fishbowl. I should've known better and been more sensitive and restrained in my comments...

[jazzshrink]

Each of us is a work-in-progress. Keep trying, Joel. I rather like the new, less cantankerous, you.

[rpjazzguitar]

I didn't see the posts involved. But if we're going to have some people praise a piece of gear, I think we should be equally open to others criticizing the piece of gear.

I generally don't care for posts which may reflect financial interests. I think each one should include a disclosure statement.

[pingu]

good man

[joelf]

Each of us is a work-in-progress. Keep trying, Joel. I rather like the new, less cantankerous, you.

Me too (;

[joelf]

I didn't see the posts involved. But if we're going to have some people praise a piece of gear, I think we should be equally open to others criticizing the piece of gear.

True, but I def went beyond the call. These guys care as much about their products and the effect on others as we do about our playing.

I think generally it wiser for us all to step back a bit and think of possible repercussions before speaking or writing---especially in the 'minus column'.

One time Ed Cherry told me that some guys in the audience at a gig were uncomfortable with my 'coaching' of a renowned guitarist I won't name. I probably didn't realize how strong I came off, though it was not hurtful and from the heart and I knew the guy quite well and would have said nothing if he couldn't handle it.

My point: Ed softened his critique by adding 'And I say this with love'. Hear hear, and I'm glad he 'pulled my coat'. I've since adopted that verbiage when I feel the need to be critical---except when I mess up...

[jazzgtrl4]

ya when you said the bud 6 was too heavy, i knew something was "off" lol

[Woody Sound]

Take it easy, don't think too much about it, we're all in this together. And we're lucky to have this group. It's great. My wife's good friend just died this week after brutal suffering from MS. Pooping in bed, needing aides (and us) just to move her. Having Jazz guitar stuff is icing on the cake of life.

[joelf]

My wife's good friend just died this week after brutal suffering from MS. Pooping in bed, needing aides (and us) just to move her.

So sorry, brother...

[joelf]

ya when you said the bud 6 was too heavy, i knew something was "off" lol

Just one reason I need a GF: 'exercise'.

Oh, and to keep my dumb ass in line. There's that...

[darkwaters]

Congrats. It takes a big man to apologize. We all have a tendency to dig our heels in. I came across this quote (Buddha) the other day and it’s really resonated with me:

“People with opinions just go around bothering one another.”

[jazzshrink]

Just one reason I need a GF: 'exercise'.
Oh, and to keep my dumb ass in line. There's that...

When you find her, ask her if she's got a sister.

[Ukena]

Just one reason I need a GF: 'exercise'.

Oh, and to keep my dumb ass in line. There's that...

After her experience with me before and after cataract surgery, my wife likes to tell women who say their husbands are grumpy to see if those husbands need their cataracts removed.

But yes, my grumpiness tends to rise quickly without a leavening agent...

[Spook410]

We have opinions and we express them. They may be deeply held or not. Part of interaction in a forum. We also learn new stuff and change our minds. A lot. So what? We're not paid consultants. We're musicians enjoying a shared interest.

What I would like to know is this: Was the person that contacted you just a TOOB fanboy... or did the individual have a business interest in TOOB? There is a vast difference in the two. If the former, the right response is the fanboy should not be so excitable. If the latter.. that's a real problem. Since you said 'from TOOB' I'm concerned it was someone with a financial stake in TOOB. If that's the case, they really need to keep their commercial interests out of this forum. Especially when it comes to private messages and opinions on their products. There's no place for that here. I'm hoping this was not our local TOOB owner (Gitterbug if I'm not mistaken) having a moment of bad judgement.

Note: I don't make the rules, real or casual, around here. Just my opinion on how things should be.

[Gitterbug]

OK, there's nobody officially speaking for Toob except me - gentleman or not. PMs should remain private, which is why I did not react to Joelf's public apology at first. Of course I thanked him privately.

There's a bit of history behind this incident. The OP did own a very early, secondhand Toob many years ago. He brings this up whenever someone suggests him a Toob or Metro. I'm not even sure which model he had, because I had sent several to Brooklyn jazz cats, some as free samples, others against a symbolic cost plus price. Their feedback eventually led to the Metro range.

In my PM I just reminded Joelf that in a previous post, long ago, he did specify it was the amp bought together with the cab that he did not like. (I won't name the amp, which the previous owner did not like either, and of which I have no personal experience.)

Under the belief that he was still after a super lightweight rig and a financially bearable solution, I did offer him a 20W Metro 6.5GP free of charge. He could then complement it with a locally sourced Quilter SuperBlock US. This is the rig I'm using in a six-piece swing band addressing crowds up to 120 or so. Cost: a fraction of Henriksens (fine, fine amps IMHO). Tone: more Fender-y.

Perhaps I was naive trying to help a bro in need and put the record straight at the same time. Joelf responded swiftly and politely, saying no thanks to my offer as he was not in the market anymore. The exact wording of our messages deserves to remain private (that's why PMs exist) but the tone was absolutely gentlemanly on both sides.

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinions, and negative views are valuable, especially if they're founded and consistent. The feedback I'm getting is overwhelmingly positive. Thanks to multiple rounds of communication with almost each direct customer, the return rate remains under 1%.

Finally, "financial interest" sounds a bit overblown in this context. Mine is a retirement hobby, into which I have made an initial investment: registrations and certifications, tooling, design, website, demo videos, trade shows - all necessary to build a business, yet all in moderation. After 697 units finished since May 2017, this one-man circus has slowly transformed from outright madness into a more sensible operation. However, there's one missing element in the official accounts - my salary, which is none. I will be able to take out some cash at the end of the year again and sprinkle it to Red Cross, UNICEF, Ukraine and grandchildren. However the real reward is in my mission: dealing with musicians I admire and respect, and making their life easier.

Cheers,

Markku

[Stringswinger]

Kudos to you Markku!

I used to get together with the famous luthier Rick Turner (RIP) here in Santa Cruz from time to time to "shoot the shit". We would discuss music (he was part of the 60's folk-rock scene and I have been a professional jazz guitarist in Santa Cruz for the last 20 plus years and Rick was a fan of my playing). We would discuss politics (he was a socialist and clearly on the left side of the political spectrum, I am a libertarian and clearly on the right side of the political spectrum, yet we somehow were always able to agree to disagree) and business (I was in the restaurant business, the nightclub business and the law business, he ended up in the business of making guitars). He always complained that after all the California employee mandates and the high rent for his shop (he lived in his office), that everyone working for him made more than he did.

Anyone doing anything music related for the money should figure out that if money is of utmost importance, there are better opportunities in this life. Unless you are Taylor Swift.

[RJVB]

Just one reason I need a GF: 'exercise'.

Careful what you wish for, their usual abbreviation for "exercise" is "chores", not chords

[rpjazzguitar]

It's still a financial interest, whether a sale reflects real profit or just a reduction in losses.

I think a disclosure is warranted in each post about a product from anybody with a financial interest in it.

[medblues]

It's still a financial interest, whether a sale reflects real profit or just a reduction in losses.

I think a disclosure is warranted in each post about a product from anybody with a financial interest in it.

As I recall, Gitterbug consistently declares his conflict of interest in most if not all his posts. Moreover, he also contributes to the forum in other subjects.

We have several builders and other professionals on the forum. Their contributions are very valuable and over a decade, I have only seen one (or two) coming across as hiding their financial motives. On the other hand, I have seen too many people putting down products without stating that it's their subjective taste or opinions. Neither situations really bother me enough to start an argument but I just wanted to state my observation.

[pingu]

We have opinions and we express them. They may be deeply held or not. Part of interaction in a forum. We also learn new stuff and change our minds. A lot. So what? We're not paid consultants. We're musicians enjoying a shared interest.

What I would like to know is this: Was the person that contacted you just a TOOB fanboy... or did the individual have a business interest in TOOB? There is a vast difference in the two. If the former, the right response is the fanboy should not be so excitable. If the latter.. that's a real problem. Since you said 'from TOOB' I'm concerned it was someone with a financial stake in TOOB. If that's the case, they really need to keep their commercial interests out of this forum. Especially when it comes to private messages and opinions on their products. There's no place for that here. I'm hoping this was not our local TOOB owner (Gitterbug if I'm not mistaken) having a moment of bad judgement.

Note: I don't make the rules, real or casual, around here. Just my opinion on how things should be.

i disagree with all that ….
I like having Gitterbug on here
its educational

I like having all makers and players on here ….

it’s a rare place and vibe
please don’t spoilt it

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

As I recall, Gitterbug consistently declares his conflict of interest in most if not all his posts. Moreover, he also contributes to the forum in other subjects.

He does indeed. Those of us who've participated regularly in the forums here have been treated for some time now to a running commentary on the birth and early development of the Toob. He's been as transparent as new plexiglass about the entire effort.

I wish we all had a heaping measure of his honesty, his integrity, and his joie de vivre. My wife and I have long wanted to visit Finland and Estonia. So we went last summer and got to meet and visit with him and his wife. My wife was a bit apprehensive, since we had no idea what to expect - but it worked out very well. He and his wife are fine, delightful people whom we're proud to be able to call friends.

To be perfectly clear, I have no financial or other business interest in Toob.

[jads57]

Hard to discuss things honestly, when you can’t be in person. Also many Don’t identify themselves as amateur or professional, novice or making a living on these tools.

So leway should be given when personal opinions are involved. But I get the apology and it’s very gracious indeed!

[Spook410]

i disagree with all that ….
I like having Gitterbug on here
its educational

I like having all makers and players on here ….

it’s a rare place and vibe
please don’t spoilt it

It's not about disclosure. And I like having Gitterbug here as well. I have often praised his knowledge of speakers and construction. We all want builders, sellers, designers, et al from the music business here. The point is.. contacting someone in private about comments on your product, a contact resulting in a public apology for questioning the goodness of that product, is not so great. IMHO that was a moment of bad judgement. Not everyone will agree with that assessment considering intent, and that's OK.

[Max405]

We are entitled to our opinions. But not everyone confronts a difficult situation with class and respect.
You did.
Class move Joel.
Thanks, JD

I received a note from a gentleman from Toob, objecting---rightfully---to my negative comments on their product. Plus, as he correctly pointed out, it was the head---not the Toob speaker, and from a different manufacture---that I didn't like so much. The sound generates from there, and the speaker only brings out what's already there, as we all know.

I only gave my opinion---and admit to being a person of strong and perhaps impatient opinions. I certainly didn't mean to bad-mouth any product or company. This man and Peter Henriksen really care about the quality of their products and the approval of them by us, and do a great job.The amps just didn't speak to me, simple as that.

On the Web we're in a fishbowl. I should've known better and been more sensitive and restrained in my comments...

[joelf]

When you find her, ask her if she's got a sister.

That'll cost ya.

How deep are your pockets?