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When I play acoustically on my archtop, flattop, classical, etc., I feel like I'm surrounded by the sound. When I play through an amplifier, I feel like the sound is "over there." I get a stronger sense of that when playing through a closed back cabinet rather than an open back. It changes how I experience playing, which I think is why I prefer to play acoustically when I can. Your description of playing with the Bose sort of seems like that sense of being surrounded by the music; am I getting close?
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I guess I'm going to have to go somewhere and plug into one of these and experience it for myself. The other thing I'm really intrigued by is the vertical placement facilitated by Toob's cabs, which might provide some of the same sort of experience.
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12-15-2023 03:40 PM
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Have you tried singing and playing through it? Maybe I missed that. I need a PA by January 20th and the Bose S1 was suggested by a friend of mine. Someone else suggested QSC K series, which is double price and well... Christmas is expensive with 6 and 7 year old kids...
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For the sense of being "surrounded" or just "experiencing the sound as all around -- more like playing an acoustic" my best guitar experience was with a JBL line array on an outdoor gig (guitar>ME70>LJ (speaker off)>JBL). Don't know the model, but it's the one with 7 inputs. I had a similar reaction to singing through a Bose L1 -- I loved the sound -- just seemed so natural. I didn't go that route for a couple of reasons: a lot to carry, expensive and, by one report, projects too far if the other instruments are coming through ordinary amps. Originally Posted by Cunamara
The S1 is a line array system, or so I've heard. I've only tried it sitting on the floor leaning back, but I'm going to buy a pole for it. Seems like that might enhance the "surround" effect, or, perhaps, screw up the bass response. We'll see.
One last point. It may be perfectly possible to get a great sound from a much cheaper powered speaker. For some reason, my GAS focused on the S1. Didn't have to. But, the Bose didn't require any additional preamplification.
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I work regularly with a bass player who uses exactly that. But with *4* 901's. Originally Posted by John A.
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I have two Bose S1s. ive never used it for a jazz gig actually... i use it every sunday though in a country trio lol...with a Fractal FM9 and Godin A8 electric mandolin. Sounds great! plus we dont get loud at all. those Bose S1s are great..im sure the newer model is great too.
Last edited by jazzgtrl4; 12-17-2023 at 02:48 PM.
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Yikes. Almost as yikes as an SVT. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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So, now that I've been living with the S1 for a few weeks, here are some more thoughts.
My regular restaurant gig has a ridiculously tight bandstand, with no room for an amp behind me.
I'd been using the Little Jazz on the floor in front of me. It has a rear port. The rear port has more bass than the speaker in front, but I could manage.
With the S1, there is no rear port. Twice, I've put it on a table that's in front of the band. I felt my usual clean sound was too dry and harsh (which I have thought with other amplification) and my wetter sound was too echoey. I tweaked it on the fly, but never got comfortable with the sound. So, I haven't yet figured out how to make the S1 work in that situation.
I should note that it's a very quiet gig as quartets go.
In louder situations (big band, outdoor sextet) the S1 sounded great. The amp? The room? My mood? Who knows?
In my practice room, I sometimes find the bass too boomy and the S1 only has two band EQ. There are dozens of presets which apparently reflect 31 band EQ profiles, but there is no documentation showing the frequency graph of each and no ability to create your own profile. Seems odd, but there you have it. At practice volumes I seem to prefer the Little Jazz to the S1.
I should note that I was aware of the two band EQ before the purchase. I was also aware of the presets through the Bose Music App and I was hoping they would suffice. But, I couldn't find any documentation of what EQ profiles are available through the Bose Music App. I called Bose and they couldn't tell me. If all it is is EQ, why not publish the graph?
I was hoping some of the presets would be good enough. I had to order an S1 to find out. I have not found any of them helpful. I need to roll off a certain range of bass frequencies in some situations and I can't do it to my satisfaction.
So, there's an argument that I didn't get enough stuff. That is, that I need an outboard graphic EQ and maybe a preamp with a real tube in it to warm things up. But, I was hoping for simplicity, not more stuff to carry and set up.
I then took a look at the EV Everse 8. By "look" I mean I read about it. It has global FX and multiband EQ (three bands per channel and 5 band globally, or maybe it was 7). Compared to the S1, the Everse 8 gives much more control over the sound but is more complicated to use. An example: if you turn the S1 on its side to use as a stage monitor, the S1 figures that out and adjusts for it. The EV can adjust too, but it can't figure out whether it's vertical or horizontal -- you have to tell it in a menu. If you need to adjust EQ during a gig, you're menu surfing, either on the unit or on your phone or tablet. Far better than nothing. Not as simple as 7 sliders in a metal box.
The EV is, by all reports, extremely loud. Not a big deal to me, since the S1 goes as loud as I ever want to play. But, the multiband EQ -- that's attractive enough to have me thinking about returning the S1 and trying the Everse. The EV also offers multiple reverbs. The S1 has just one, but it sounds fine.
Or, the whole idea of using a powered speaker could be an empty exercise and, if I want the sound of a great guitar amp, I should buy a great guitar amp. For some reason I couldn't resist this rabbit hole. GAS with a nasty twist.
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For me, the whole deal with an FRFR (Full Range Flat Response) speaker is to accurately reproduce the input. Many are just boxes with no controls unlike the S1 that has a few. It's possible, based on your experience, that being an electric guitar amp could be outside what it was designed to do (i.e. a mini-PA for acoustic guitar and voice). I am sorry it's not working out better.
As for me, my living room doesn't represent the unique constraints of snug stages and noisy venues, but I find I need, as a bare minimum, all of the following: EQ, Amp Model, Reverb, and Speaker IR(s) in front of an FRFR.
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Much appreciated. I think that I'll end up there if I stay with a powered speaker. Originally Posted by Spook410
The new version of the pedalboard I use (the new one is the Boss ME90) has all of that (3 band EQ), although buying third party IRs seems like a part of the underground cave complex I'd rather avoid.
The ME80 has amp models which I don't care for, 3 band EQ which sounds a little brittle, good reverb and one cab sim option which sounds the same on or off. The ME70 is about the same in a somewhat different package. The underlying sonic engine of the ME90 is different than the 80 or 70 and of course is alleged to be better.
The good part, of course, is that the S1 sounded really good in the louder situations and weighs very little. Same for the competing products. And, since I use a pedalboard anyway, it should all work well once I find the right combination.
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I needed a battery powered amp for a one off outdoor old time jazz gig back in the summer using my Loar 700 with a mini HB neck mount floater.
Before the gig I tried a friend's Roland Cube Street. Even with all the various knobs and settings the sound had no mids and seemed very processed. Probably more suited to a flat top.
Secondly another friend lent me this QTX - QR15PA Portable PA 15" Unit LN119208 - 178.846UK | SCAN UK
This was much better over all but was very boomy as the volume went up.
I finally settled on an old Peavey Solo which I purchased for £30 but changed the 8" speaker to a Jensen c8r. I was planning on using an old Fishman Platinum EQ with it but managed to leave it in my car which was a long way from the bandsand. So did the gig straight into the amp. It had a much more natural sound and I was louder than the drummer!
The gig was 2.5 hours and the 8 batteries went only from 1.6v to 1.5v. At some point I shall invest in a 12v power bank. Here's the Solo:
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On the topic of batteries..
If you are using a Class-D amplifier that pulls very few amps you can use an inexpensive rechargeable battery pack to power it. A single charge will last longer than any gig. Or you can have two of them just in case. These are also great devices for camping/outdoors and power outages.
If you check the amp hours and surge watts you need, even a small/low power model could work fine for amps and PA speakers: Amazon.com
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This was recommended to me for my Solo. https://www.amazon.co.uk/LITHIUM-LiF...s%2C197&sr=8-3 Originally Posted by Spook410
I rarely do outside these days. Back in the day the organisers would always provide power but they don't these days because of liability.
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I use a regular amp with Class D power section, with a "power station", which is a battery system with various outputs, including standard USB 5V, 9V, 12V, and includes an inverter with standard AC output. Here it's 120V, but they're available elsewhere in 220/240VAC. Mine weighs almost nothing, less than a kilogram, and lasts for a long time. I can't say exactly how long, because I've never come close to depleting it. It runs the amp, and also pedals, and charges my phone. IME it's a better choice than a single-voltage battery, and battery-powered amps seem to be too much of a compromise with sound. I prefer to stay with my usual amp. Of course, a tube amp won't last long on it, but a solid state Class D amp draws very little power.
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which power station do you use
sgo ?
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Beaudens. I don't know if it's available on the east side of the pond.
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thanks
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So, after a few weeks of usage, I liked the S1, but I was bothered by the limited EQ options.
I knew it was 2 band before I got it, but I was hopeful that the Bose Music App's presets (dozens of them) would suffice. Apparently, they're 31 band EQ settings, but Bose does not publish the graphs. They have a Les Paul setting, for example, but it doesn't distinguish between Les and Slash. Similarly, there's a Stratocaster setting, but you don't know if it's Lorne Lofsky or Eric Clapton.
When bass frequencies seemed too loud I wished I had a nice graphic eq which would eliminate the problem without overly affecting the rest of the sound.
Somehow (probably a Facebook algorithm), my attention was drawn the EV Everse 8. It's in the same general product category as the S1 but with a different feature set.
The EV doesn't have any wireless capability for sound (both units can be controlled with a phone by bluetooth) and it doesn't automatically know whether it's upright or on its side. The Bose S1 knows, but you have to tell the EV.
But, the EV has some very nice features: global 7 band graphic eq, a global parametric eq, many different FX including multiple reverbs (Bose has one, although it's nice). 3 band eq on each channel, an input sensitivity control (Bose seems to have automated that too, and quite well, I think), a useful compressor and the EV is much louder.
For sound, both sound much better than my previously beloved Little Jazz. They both sound good and they don't sound the same. Perhaps somebody who has mastered the controls of the EV could get it to sound like the Bose, but so far I haven't been able to do that. Best I could do was to get a mellower sound from the Bose compared to a sharper (I don't know how to put it into words) sound from the EV. I like them both, but I keep wanting to subtract more bass from the Bose sound and I didn't want to have to put an EQ in front of it.
In short, I can get a good guitar sound from the EV even without my pedalboard. This is important in one situation. When I show up for a jam session I dread the possibility that I will be the worst player with the most gear. I just don't want to be that guy. I admire a friend who shows up, sometimes, with a guitar and a small Victoria amp and always sounds terrific. I already bought the same guitar and I could buy the amp, but his hands and skills aren't for sale, so it won't sound the same.
The EV is $75 or so more, a few inches taller, 10% bigger in footprint and 2 or 3 lbs heavier (about 17 compared to under 15 - didn't bother me).
The Bose's features are pretty obvious from the panel and from the app. The EV not so much, perhaps not surprising because of all the additional features. I still haven't figured out how they use the words Speaker and Main, but I seem to be able to deal with all the controls I need .
Hopefully, the GAS attack will soon subside. Thanks to everyone who helped me think this through.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-30-2023 at 08:48 PM.
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Hmmm. Well, now I'm thinking that a Bose and one of the Polytone-in-a-pedals could be a pretty dang hot arrangement for jazz guitar.
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My thought is that you're exactly right. Originally Posted by Cunamara
I'd also suggest considering competing powered speakers. My attention has gone from the Bose S1 to the EV Everse 8, because the latter has a number of additional features, several of which look very useful. But, if you've got a good modeling unit in front of the powered speaker, I'd bet they all sound good.
Btw, when I first tried the Everse 8 I focused on the 7 band EQ and the choice of reverbs. I initially ignore the compressor, probably because I'd never used one I liked. But, the compressor sounded very good. With a choice of reverbs and other FX, a compressor and 7 band EQ (also a parametric EQ I haven't tried yet), I think you can get a pretty good sound even without a modeler in front. And then, you can improve it further with the modeler.
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My interest in the Bose is the notion of sound dispersion rather than the beamy tendencies of guitar amps, wanting the sort of acoustic guitar surrounded-in-sound experience instead of "the sound is on the other side of the room." But also assuming these are voiced for acoustic guitar and voice rather than electric/jazz guitar, hence something in front to do the tone shaping. I have an Alto TS110a which worked OK with a Zoom MS-100bt in front of it, but just not quite. And it's not that much more convenient to tote than an amp.
The other option I am mulling is a Toob pointing up and a mini amp like an SBUS.
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The Evolve 8 spec for coverage angle is 100x100 (that's degrees). Iirc, the Bose S1 is 100x40. I'm not sure I know exactly how to interpret those numbers. Depending how the Bose is oriented (standing up or on its side) that 40 degrees may be vertical dispersion and the lower number may be better. Originally Posted by Cunamara
The Bose tweeters (three of them) face slightly different directions. The Evolve has just one. I don't know how they end up with the same horizontal dispersion when placed standing up.
For the "surround" experience, the best thing I've played through were the line arrays. I talked sang through the Bose L1 and thought it was just terrific, head and shoulders above the next best thing I've sung or talked through). I went guitar>ME80>LJ>JBL line array (the one with 7 inputs) and thought it was incredible, among the best guitar sounds I ever got.
But, using a line array in a group where not everybody is using a line array is reported to create problems because the line array projects much further. I don't know enough about that to have an opinion about the severity of the problem or what solutions might be available.
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The Evolve has better dispersion than my Alto TS110a, which claims 100x60 degrees which is itself surprisingly better than the Bose at 100x40. That's really interesting, as the Alto just has the tweeter and woofer pointing forward rather than the spread of the Bose. The Bose might actually be a step back from what I have already in that regard, although I'm not sure how significant those numbers are in terms of real life. The Alto is heavier and larger, though, at 25#. But while the dispersion of the Alto is at least as good as the Bose, I'm not sure how much more "natural" the sound is between the three (or if that's even a moot point, since they seem to all be designed to reproduce the input pretty faithfully).
There's a Bose L1 Compact on the local Craigslist for $625... and a Quilter Frontliner 2x8 cab for $400.
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You can use two speakers and, in my limited experience, that fixes the directional thing. As small and portable as some of these speakers are, that might be viable even considering gigging mobility and simplicity. Though there would be the extra expense.
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I spent a few minutes trying to understand horizontal and vertical dispersion. In the situations I play in, the importance of horizontal dispersion seems clear, because the places tend to be small with people on both sides facing the bandstand. But, what about vertical? If I have 100 degrees vertically, seems like I'd be pumping a lot of sound into the floor and ceiling. Might the smaller number be better in these situations? Originally Posted by Cunamara
Different if you're buying a PA speaker to hang over a stage in a big theater.
I can't think of any good way to compare the S1 and the EV 8 so that I could figure out if one will be better in actual practice rather than in theory, at least with respect to vertical dispersion.
In terms of sound, I'm liking the flexibility of the EV 8. Today I AB'ed it at home with the Little Jazz. The first time I tried that I thought the EV was way better. Today, I thought the LJ was a little better, but, then I tweaked the EQ and added a drop of compression and I thought the EV was better.
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