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Hi!
Over the years I have often heard that hollowbody (arched or carved top) guitars painted black have wood with some defects.
Using logical thinking, it can be said that a carved/arched soundboard with excellent wood without defects is ideal for creating a "natural" instrument.
However, if the wood has imperfections it is better to paint it black and avoid eliminating it.
Is this a legend? Has anyone ever gone so far as to STRIP PAINT off a hollowbody guitar painted black to see the wood?
Ettore - Quenda.it - Jazz Guitar - Chitarra Jazz
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11-25-2023 10:05 AM
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Sounds like some kind of urban lore to me ... People order and desire black or even darker-colored guitars, and I doubt they'd say, "and give me something with bad wood, please!" Could the "big guitar makers" do this? Maybe, I guess, but I doubt that's an "industry standard."
Ciao!
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It makes sense to keep the nicest figured "looking" wood for natural finish as opposed to very dark and black finish but that has nothing to do with the tone or quality of the wood.
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I’ve seen some old Gibsons and Epiphones that were either black or sunburst that had been stripped of their original finish. It’s not uncommon for them to have imperfections that were hidden under the dark finish. I definitely don’t mean damaged wood. I mean things like maybe a small knot or a weird area of discoloration, just things that might have seemed less desirable had they been visible. I’ve even seen some old larger Epiphones that had additional pieces of wood added at the edges of the lower bout to make the joined final piece of back wood wide enough. It didn’t make these guitars sound any better or worse and the imperfections or joined areas end up covered by the finish. Generally people had no idea until they decided they wanted to make the guitar a blonde.
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In days gone by, a natural finish cost more than sunburst on the same guitar. In the ‘62 Gibson catalog, natural was an additional $15 on a JS and $25 on a Super 400. This disappeared in later years, for no obvious reason.
We always assumed that the best looking wood was used on blondes, also for no known reason except that it seemed logical.
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Black used to be Gibson’s economy color. My 2022 L-5 had a $600 up-charge over VSB. My black L-5 has a highly flamed back that you can see through through the F-holes. Also the rollers are evident when you look at the back from the side. The spruce lines are very uniform.
I believe if you order black they use the same wood as VSB but if they just make one they are probably hiding something like a knot or even a repaired grain crack.
Black will slow every flaw so the finish must be flawless. Orange peel, dings and scratches will really show. Also fingerprints and dust like a shiny black Porsche.
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Maple routinely has 'mineral streaks' that have no impact on the integrity of the wood. Purely cosmetic. Most (but not all) people see these as imperfections. A wise manufacturer will use the less perfect-looking boards where it's appearance doesn't matter so much, like under a dark stain. It's good for the forest too.
Like the debate about pure black ebony, and ebony with lighter areas. A lot of really good wood is trashed due to our preference for pure black. Bad for the forest.
Some will argue that highly figured grain is somewhat less stable than plain straight grain. But straight grain maple isn't what we like to see on our guitars, is it. Seems the wilder the better really.
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Black is always hiding something> That is the reason for the stinger>
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Doesn't a black finish have to be thicker in order to be really opaque?
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No, the stain just has to be dark. I've used heavy coats of Fiebings leather dye, with normal thicknesses of nitro on top, and nothing shows through.
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One might wonder if black guitars sound better in general as the wood selection is not hindered by cosmetic constraints, lol.
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It was always my understanding that the defects that led to choosing dark opaque finishes were purely cosmetic.
Not structural defects or serious quality issues.
Although the dark finished could also be hiding mistakes made by the luthiers or other employees, and even then, the issue was the cosmetic impact of the mistake or the repair.
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Certainly possible.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
One of my favorite Benedettos is his knotty pine archtop.
Looks like it's for sale:
1993 Benedetto Knotty Pine Special 17" Archtop - One of a | Reverb
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Early on Gibson and Fender ( as well as others I'm sure) painted non figured guitars , and in the case of the gold tops it was to hide the maple cap when first introduced from Fender. In the case of some of the lesser models Gibson at least did use it to hide defects , not always black , sometimes heavy sunburst , like this old ES-120 I was left . The top Left has a BIG seam /patch that was covered by the thick finish
and as they did , I covered it too . Still a work in progress
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No…. but it makes eminent sense that as a manufacturer, your least beautiful wood planks would be the ones you’d use for guitars that you’re painting. And builders do routinely sort their wood by grade. Originally Posted by marcwhy
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I have friends who worked for gibson and tops that would have been abandoned for sunburst or natural are selected for painting. Originally Posted by marcwhy
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Things that make a pretty guitar and things that make a structurally optimum guitar aren't always the same. In fact, a guitar with beautiful matched flame and curl can be seen on the backs of guitars from a billet that was cut on the slab or even the skew (not optimum cuts from a purely structural ideal). The buyer often doesn't see beyond the figure.
As a luthier, I love working with a quarter sawn back; the cross silk on a clear bookmatch is heaven's cut for me. It allows me to graduate to a less massive thickness and tuning is consistent and responsive to the curved plane. But it doesn't look spectacular. I don't see it a lot on guitars. An example where diseased wood is valued over the beauty of a tree's optimum functionality and purity.
To a guitar maker building to the pocketbook of the market's aesthetics, function and even acoustic strengths are not nearly as important as fantastic figure.
I had a 1938 L-10. Really abused. I had to do a re-finish. It had a dark severe nearly black sunburst as was the style of the day. The stripped wood that was revealed sported flame and bear claw. Back then Bear claw was considered UGLY so that instrument would never have been a blondie with an upcharge.
European spruce has suffered grey streaks since coal burning plants in Eastern Europe have caused aluminum deposits in the rainwater to be a part of post war tree growth. That's why Czech cello and basses are so much harder to find now: the wood is visually tainted.
The market tells the guitar company what is beautiful. That becomes the ideal. All else gets cosmetic considerations (black and cover up finishes) to make them sexy in their own ways.
That's the market.
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Thank you all for the answers. I learned several new things and that's great.
A curiosity that may interest you is that I live about 25 miles from Cremona. I know some luthiers who don't make guitars but only violins and cellos. I'm told the only reason to paint an instrument black is to hide defects.
Ettore
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I don’t think mass produced archtops are carved and tuned sufficiently enough, for things like pitch pockets and or other ‘structural’ or ‘sonic’ defects to make much difference.
Therefore it is likely that all wood is sorted for cosmetic reasons.
High end acoustic makers and archtop makers would be more concerned with hidden issues that could effect tone and therefore discount selected wood entirely because of it.
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Jimmy D'Aquisto once told me that most luthiers don't know how to tap tune and that they don't understand the correlation between what they hear when they do, and what it will sound like when the guitar is put together from both an acoustic and electric guitar point of view. Originally Posted by Archie
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I suppose to add, there isn’t a builder alive who’s made a guitar they didn’t think was their best work and binned it. Originally Posted by jzucker
There is already too much work and time sunk into it.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, is the nature of life.
I suppose mass production has the advantage here as they’re not trying to balance on a knifes edge and the tone is accordingly less sublime.
luckily a good thunky, relatively dull, electrified tone, is what we actually prefer for the most part.
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by the way, did you sell your af200 and gb100? Originally Posted by Archie
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Once you go black you never go back. Black is beautiful
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@Vinnyv1k~ WOW!
Beautiful photography of a beautiful black and gold L5.
Hey, does it have a stinger hidden within all of that ebony lacquer?
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Looks like it’s all stinger!!! Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
@Vinnyv1k~ WOW!
Beautiful photography of a beautiful black and gold L5.
Hey, does it have a stinger hidden within all of that ebony lacquer?
Nice pics of a black guitar are difficult. Nice work, Vinny!
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