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Review TLDR: good build, light weight, easy to use, no need to seriously tweak, plug and play, good amp in the room sound, no fuss, fairly priced (i.e, good value).
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11-19-2023 01:11 PM
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It’s not actually flat response. It has an eq. I guess that’s why they actually just call it FR and not FRFR. If it’s designed for modelers an eq in the amp/cab seems counterintuitive.
I have a Friedman ASM-12. It is full FRFR and uses a class G amplifier which has less EM interference than a class D amp like in the Fender. It costs quite a bit more, but I would wager the build and component quality are a significant part of the reason.
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I'm really curious about this product. 28 pounds is OK. And it's almost cheap enough to experiment with.
As for the Friedman.. I really want one though my back might veto the 52 pounds.
Thing is.. sometimes I choose an IR for a 10" Princeton. Or 2X12 Matchless. Or 1X15 JBL. Not sure how this style of speaker would do when asked to do actual FRFR.
Right now I'm using Schertler gear. A bit better sound than most PA speakers. It's gotten too expensive these days and I won't be replacing bits that break and wear out. But really like the sound and the broad frequency response.Last edited by Spook410; 11-19-2023 at 04:22 PM.
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The Friedman ASC-10 is 34 pounds, so not a whole lot more.
Originally Posted by Spook410
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I have a TOOB. That and the Quilter “American” pedal amp all fits in a little lunch box container and forms my SMALL footprint setup—that I will using this Thanksgiving . Originally Posted by marcwhy
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Since Marcwhy mentioned TOOB, a few words about my offering. For many, the 6.5", 130W, 4.2 lb Metro 6.5FR II is sufficient for the amp-in-the room feeling, for acoustic guitars and a variety of instruments, as a feedback inducer in high-gain situations, as well as in stereo or wet/dry/wet rigs. The SICA 6D 1.5SL dual cone speaker is fairly linear in my felt-ported cab from under 100 Hz to 15 kHz.
I have also made a few samples of TOOB 12F near-fr cabs loaded with the 12", 150W Jensen N12D speaker. Special orders and positive feedback from both the modeling/IR camp and world class acoustic guitar/oud/veena players such as Elden Kelly and Jussi Reijonen. The cab weighs under 11 lb. It handles bass like a dedicated speaker and has a crystal clear top end above 10K.
Both models come with extra legs for playing in the upright position.Last edited by Gitterbug; 11-20-2023 at 06:18 AM.
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Just to play some advocate's devil - there's been complains of a very loud "hiss" in these models (just do a search on TGP). Also, without having tried this specific cab, I've been a much bigger fan of coaxial FRFR designs than the woofer plus tweeter approach. What Fender got right is the looks!
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I think the hiss would drive me nuts..
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convince me why you need a 20hz-20khz cab on a modeler where the speakers top out at 5k? Originally Posted by Navdeep_Singh
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I'm partly with Jack on this. But the 70 Hz-5 kHz zone should be reasonably flat in order not to color the modeler's signal, i.e. accentuate the 2-3 kHz hump. Any midrange pro audio speaker should qualify.
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I run my modeler into a 1x12 mojotone cab with mesa blackshadow and it sounds great. I disable the cab modeling. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
I've found speaker IRs to be useful for recording but in general, i don't feel they do a fabulous job. They are missing the interaction a real speaker motor has with a tube amp output transformer. To me, they just sound like a fancy low pass filter.
The helix speaker modeling sounds better than straight IRs to me and takes the place of dozens of individual IRs because you can vary mic position and placement
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You got a point.
What you want for a guitar modeller is a "GRFR = Guitar range flat response". You don't need the full range, but you want the flat response (to model various speakers).
So if you get a modeller and already own a bunch of gear which can output sound from it, you probably don't need to buy new gear just to get something "full range".
But isn't asking "do we really need full range" a bit like asking "do we really need xlr line out/effects loop/carry handle/whatever feature"?
A lot of people have gear with features that they neither want, need nor use.
The FRFR or quasi FRFR speaker elements are roughly in the same price range as many popular alnico and neo speakers guitarists use. The electronics design is more complex for a larger frequency range but I doubt it's going to affect the price tag significantly?
I think if you're developing a product, which is mainly intended to be used with guitar modellers, it is probably a favourable trade of to make it full range, because it adds little to the cost (AFAIK) and to some buyers there is the selling point of also being usable for bass, keyboards or other applications.
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Frequency response on a Strymon Iridium is 20hz to 20Khz. Not that you'll be doing a lot of business in the upper teens but thinking this is a lot more common than a modeler that cuts off at 5Khz. Which actually, I find kind of odd. As for using a guitar speaker because it offers a natural filter, I prefer adjustable filters.
Reasons for an FRFR:
- Archtop acoustic overtones
- Flat top acoustic guitar
- Bass
- Voice
- MP3 between sets
- Keyboard
- Percussive effects
- Drum machine
- Backing tracks
- Requirements evolve in the rapidly developing world of music electronics. The speaker should not be a constraint.
Reason not to have an FRFR:
- You have something else sitting around the house and you like the way your tele sounds through it
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My Mambo PA cabs have a great solution for that - they have an on/off switch for the tweeter
Given I always use a hi-cut with modelers, it's always on.
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Just curious.. why use a hi cut? Pick / string noise maybe? Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
My Mambo PA cabs have a great solution for that - they have an on/off switch for the tweeter Given I always use a hi-cut with modelers, it's always on.
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That's an excellent question, and I don't have a good answer for that other than modelers sound a lot better with an hi-cut, even with very good IRs. In the Helix case, the one I have more experience with, I don't need the hi-cut if I'm using just fx but as soon as I turn the amp modelling on, it needs a 4k/5k hi-cut... no idea why, but it sounds so much better with it on, and it's a such simple solution, I don't even bother with the why. But I agree it shouldn't need one! All IMHO, of course, Originally Posted by Spook410
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It doesn't matter if the strymon is 20hz to 20Ghz. The guitar speaker is going to limit you to about 5k. If you're talking about acoustic guitar, it's a different story.
Originally Posted by Spook410
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You would think the IR would reflect the guitar speaker it's IR'ing so, yea, 5K seems reasonable. As for getting 20K from a modeler, it does sound good to run a flat top through just the amp model with the IR turned off. Acoustic guitar (flat or arched) might be a variation on the raison d'être for modelers, but common enough. Still going to choose an actual FRFR regardless. Works for modelers with IR's, without IR's, and a long list of other applications many of us have for a speaker. Originally Posted by jzucker
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Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Going to try this. I'm good with empirical results and while it's nice to know.. don't need to know.
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Or maybe this isn't right. It occurs to me that the older I get, the more things I don't know. Originally Posted by Spook410
So.. an IR image is what a specific microphone sees at a specific distance and angle to a specific speaker.
The speaker may be limited to 5Khz.. but the microphone isn't. It's picking up the speaker at the angle/distance specified which means it's also picking up reflections/ambient/and room. Which are not limited to 5Khz.
Does this mean to get the 'air' from the microphone, we need something beyond 5Khz in our amp modeler / IR output to a FRFR speaker? You can certainly hear a big difference on a given speaker IR between a close mic Shure SM57 and a farther out Neumann U87.
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Again, it doesn't matter if the mic goes into the Ghz range. If the speaker only reproduces up to 5k, there's no benefit to having a full range cabinet. If you are playing acoustic guitar there is some advantage to having frequencies in the 10k range but for archtop guitar, blues/rock/fusion guitar, 4k-5k is all you need. It's very common for modeling rigs to use a low pass filter set to 4k-5k. No benefit to having 20khz cab...
Originally Posted by Spook410
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Still counterintuitive for me. Human voice is very limited in frequency range. Yet a lot of effort is put into capturing what the microphone is picking up which is a broad frequency spectrum. Even in a sound booth. With a guitar speaker there's a lot going on past the cone. Like room reflections and overall room ambience. So are we not hearing these with an IR? With our Ghz mic's? Originally Posted by jzucker
Another interesting point is that some guitar speaker IR's are delivered as a 6 Khz low pass product. Others aren't or they don't specify (they just say whether it's 44.1Khz, 48Khz, or the more typical 96Khz sample for the loader)Last edited by Spook410; 11-25-2023 at 07:49 PM.
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And you're conflating 2 different things. The max sample rate isn't the frequency response. Originally Posted by Spook410
It's not counter-intuitive. A vocal mic might be used by flute, piccolo, guitar or any number of instruments. And incidentally, many vocal mics top off at 15k...
Most captures of jazz , rock, blues and funk guitar use a low pass filter so that anything above 5k is filtered out. It's common knowledge and there are entire threads on this topic in the helix and various modeling communities. Heck - here too. Tons of discussions about filtering those frequencies out to sound more like a guitar speaker when recording direct.
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