Ribbecke Compliant Rim design

[Mark Kleinhaut]

[skykomishone]

That's different.

[AKA]

Mark - Is this your instrument under construction?

AKA

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Mark - Is this your instrument under construction?

AKA

. Yes! I should have here within 2 months now. Had waiting but the final work can’t be rushed.

[Gitterbug]

What's the rationale?

[Mark Kleinhaut]

What's the rationale?

Heres’s a few words on the subject from the builder. As I understand things, it comes down to the top’s ability to move more freely- like the soft rim around a speaker cone.

[Sam Sherry]

Eager to hear it, Mark -- those folks deliver their best for you.

+ + +

It's a very different thing in a lot of ways, but even so the pics remind me of Bob Benedetto's "I can build a great-sounding archtop out of any spruce whatsoever" guitar with the mollusk-chewed spruce top:

[Mark Kleinhaut]

[pingu]

Yes I get it , like a loudspeaker with a complient edge

Anyway it's very very beautiful ....

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Yes I get it , like a loudspeaker with a complient edge

Anyway it's very very beautiful ....

The concept seems solid, I will be recording videos extension with it when she arrives.

[RJVB]

Beautiful woods ... but somebody already left a chewing gum in the ashtray?

[Hammertone]

The concept of the top plate acting like a loudspeaker with a lot of compliance at the recarve is an old and excellent idea, and the basis for the German Carve as perfected by Wenzel Rossmeisl in the late 1940s. Here a couple of examples - a late 1940s Berlin-label-era Roger Junior and a late 1950s Mittenwald-label-era Roger Luxus.

[RJVB]

Some of those Germans really remind me of Stainer violins (but I don't like the looks of that "ridge", TBH). I guess there's nothing new; the way the plates are joined to the sides in the violin family must have a similar effect.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

The concept of the top plate acting like a loudspeaker with a lot of compliance at the recarve an old and excellent idea, and the basis for the German Carve as perfected by Wenzel Rossmeisl in the late 1940s. Here a couple of examples - a late 1940s Berlin-label-era Roger Junior and a late 1950s Mittenwald-label-era Roger Luxus.

thanks for these pictures of the German carve, very cool to see this approach to rim compliance. I think the novel thing in Tom’s approach is using other wood species ans grain orientations to achieve the top’s freedom of motion. I think he’s got carvings of the underside to help, as all top voicing aspires to desired resonance and soundboard amplification. Of course the visual esthetic is of a different era.

[lammie200]

Congrats Mark! Fine guitar for a fine player! Can't wait to hear sounds.

[Hammertone]

thanks for these pictures of the German carve, very cool to see this approach to rim compliance. I think the novel thing in Tom’s approach is using other wood species ans grain orientations to achieve the top’s freedom of motion. I think he’s got carvings of the underside to help, as all top voicing aspires to desired resonance and soundboard amplification. Of course the visual esthetic is of a different era.

Yes, the grain orientation idea is quite interesting. I can envision cutting the strips of wood as parallelograms with very high base to height ratios as a way to mitigate the abrupt transitions between the sections. Possibly curving the sides of the parallelograms as well. hmmmm.....

[Ol' Fret]

Nice!
One more rim design by Wenzel Rossmeisl: pear wood - spruce - mahogany on a Luxus model from the Berlin period, with various (though distinct) grain orientation:




That substitute for drinking beer without a stein, the "German Beer Carve" (going back to violin making achievements from clearly before WW I) is found on the back side construction as well.
Often, but not always, the transition between the recurve to the table is considerably smoother and lower on Berlin models than on later Rogers. After all, some of the Roger employees after the war were educated violin makers - just think of Olga Adelmann (1913 - 2000), the very first female violin maker with a master craftsman diploma worldwide.
The area of the rim/edge/recurve is much more hefty looking here - a contre-jour shot - than it is in reality, which I think was the intention of Wenzel: getting a unique and striking feature. Just like Ribbecke is probably doing now.




If I could breathe a wish concerning the rim or outer edge construction on an acoustic archtop guitar, other than visual aspects, I'd make the connection between the sides and the outer 5mm or so from the top as stiff as possible - we don't want to waist valuable vibrational energy there or risk a "wobbly distortion" of the top plate as a whole, respect. generate unwanted interferences between the top's multiple resonance nodes, unless you're after a hoarse voice. In German vintage archtops this is regularly the case since they didn't use kerfed or flexible lining, just solid hot-bent lining.
The subsequent area towards the center or table, the recurve, is even more critical for the sound properties. Generally, this is where the top thickness is the smallest, conversely the flexibility the greatest.


EDIT:
On the efforts to "decouple" the table from the outer edge can be said a lot. Just one note: like Ribbecke tells the thickness of the recurve area can hardly ever be shaped even around the top and back circumference - stiffness matters. In the most "load-bearing" regions, along the strings or the center line, around the neck and end blocks, the plates have usually to be carved thicker.
Sure, you can use a different, harder or softer wood for some areas, or try to improve the mechanical (i. e., sonical) wood properties by arranging the grain lines in a certain order. Yet, IMHO, the effect would be about the same compared to plates with a conventional or uneven recurve circumference, just with some more constructional hassle - which is what both Ribbecke and Rossmeisl offer.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Nice!
One more rim design by Wenzel Rossmeisl: pear wood - spruce - mahogany on a Luxus model from the Berlin period, with various (though distinct) grain orientation:




That substitute for drinking beer without a stein, the "German Beer Carve" (going back to violin making achievements from clearly before WW I) is found on the back side construction as well.
Often, but not always, the transition between the recurve to the table is considerably smoother and lower on Berlin models than on later Rogers. After all, some of the Roger employees after the war were educated violin makers - just think of Olga Adelmann (1913 - 2000), the very first female violin maker with a master craftsman diploma worldwide.
The area of the rim/edge/recurve is much more hefty looking here - a contre-jour shot - than it is in reality, which I think was the intention of Wenzel: getting a unique and striking feature. Just like Ribbecke is probably doing now.




If I could breathe a wish concerning the rim or outer edge construction on an acoustic archtop guitar, other than visual aspects, I'd make the connection between the sides and the outer 5mm or so from the top as stiff as possible - we don't want to waist valuable vibrational energy there or risk a "wobbly distortion" of the top plate as a whole, respect. generate unwanted interferences between the top's multiple resonance nodes, unless you're after a hoarse voice. In German vintage archtops this is regularly the case since they didn't use kerfed or flexible lining, just solid hot-bent lining.
The subsequent area towards the center or table, the recurve, is even more critical for the sound properties. Generally, this is where the top thickness is the smallest, conversely the flexibility the greatest.

Man, those are some weird looking puppies. Any idea what they sound like??

[Ol' Fret]

Man, those are some weird looking puppies. Any idea what they sound like??

Yes, those may be looking weird, although over here, where Roger guitars are more common to find, they are considered to be just another distinct vintage guitar brand.
Due to their special construction, Roger guitars do have an own voice. Generally loud and really percussive - some claim they are among the loudest acoustic arched guitars, which is not my own feeling. We simply call their tone "rossig" (from Rossmeisl, sorry for the pun! It actually means "on heat").
Like on most arched guitars the mid range is emphasized, the bass a bit more than on the average German vintage archtop - so not too much difference to the average US archtop; not surprising, because the original (conventionally carved) prewar Roger design built for Roger by Franz Hirsch in Schönbach was based on the L-5. The amount of trebles depends on the particular guitar, and generally considerable differences can be found not only from model to model, but the more between the prewar, the Berlin, the Mittenwald and the late Roger guitars.

The German Carve concept definitely leads to a distinguishable amount of "flattopiness" in the sound, but doesn't this apply to some newer or contemporary archtop guitars as well? While it's general voice may not be considered to be as super-smooth or sophisticated like some of the finest cello-arched guitars can offer (don't they say the same of some Strombergs?), I also play a 1953 Roger with a tone that is - acoustically, the more electrified - almost identical to a fine L-5C from the same year. No idea here why this is the case.

So, sorry for the somewhat dissatisfying answer! It's a commonplace truth: Roger guitars sound as fine or bad as their players, and they really stood the test of time. I'm sure that you, Mark, would be sounding great on a Berlin Roger or any other finer guitar, and I wish that your Ribbecke will fully meet your expectations!

A Roger sibling - their designation is "Luxus Ultra" - from the same period can be heard here

, but I can tell you that my Roger sounds quite different ...

[Hammertone]

Man, those are some weird looking puppies. Any idea what they sound like??

They sound like fantastic acoustic archtop guitars - generally with a broad, balanced, and throaty tone. Most easily compared to 1950s Gibson 17" carved acoustic archtops, IMO, since most American will never get to play one, and most of the available videos are terrible.

[RJVB]

They sound like fantastic acoustic archtop guitars - generally with a broad, balanced, and throaty tone. Most easily compared to 1950s Gibson 17" carved acoustic archtops, IMO, since most American will never get to play one, and most of the available videos are terrible

Yes, and there aren't many either, certainly not of the acoustic (unplugged) sound. When I was looking for archtops 2 years ago I did gloat over the sometimes deliciously kitsch instruments on the German Vintage Guitar website but just didn't want to risk buying one without having a good idea of what it'd sound like. Plus the German term for these, "Schlagguitarre" doesn't much to help inspire confidence if you're looking for an instrument that will do acoustic fingerstyle...

Now, in terms of compliant rims you can't do much better than not having rims at all

[Mark Kleinhaut]

here’s a few snaps of the underside showing how Ribbecke gets the pieces out together.

[Hammertone]

Arnold Hoyer had a bit of fun in the 1950s.
Hoyer Vollton:

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Arnold Hoyer had a bit of fun in the 1950s.
Hoyer Vollton:

Jeeze, wonder why those never caught on??

[Cunamara]

Yeah, but… did you ever drop your pick down an F hole? Those guitars would make it a snap to get back out.