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As the owner of a 1951 Zephyr Regent since 1970, I concur. I like its simple classic design. The Epiphone Zephyr Deluxe is a real beauty - the inlay on the headstock and neck, the Frequensator tailpiece and cool tuners. I have always wanted one. I also felt disappointed that Gibson used Epiphone for their low price line.
Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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07-19-2023 10:51 PM
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thats what I’m talking about Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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That's a beautiful tribute to a bygone era. This was an era when guitars that bore the Epiphone name had the caché that kept Gibson on their toes. But this instrument will never command the respect, nor unlock the magical musical quality of that wood the way its progenitor did. Why? In a word: plastic.
Asian guitars, be they from Indonesia, Korea, China, Japan or any new emerging mega factory will never wear anything but a thick coat of plastic. (Eastman, you can stand clear of this rule of thumb, my hat's off to you). Poly is sound deadening. It's deadly to apply (there was a spray booth at Hoshino. The worker was in an airtight suit, otherwise he lungs would be coated and he'd be dead faster than a submersible implosion). Poly does not off gas, mature, age and harden to work with the wood the way nitro does. Poly does not age and improve an instrument as the player works with the guitar. Poly does not imprint the guitar to the guitarist. Poly feels like plastic.
When I worked for Hoshino, I'd unbox the GB10's and it was a magical experience each time. They were beautifully crafted. But I would ALWAYS wonder what was beneath that jewel like encasement. I'm convinced that a George Benson, finished in nitro, would knock a Gibson lam into the corner.
If you ever tried a guitar off the production line before it hit the spray room, you'd feel something incredible. That wood radiates music before it's finished. A nitro/lacquer finish will deaden an instrument initially; but then the emergence begins. Then is the slow steady process of plasticizers off gassing and the guitar taking on the vibrations of use, the imprinting with the player, the maturity and mellowing out. The breaking in. Poly does not do that. The wood will break in before the finish ever will.
Why do Asian factories use such a cheap deadening process? It's pretty and it's cheap. Period. They make more money and they don't care that 10% of their clientele actually cares. Why do parent companies like Gibson use factories that make guitars that look like classics but can't quack like a duck? Bridesmaid's syndrome: If the bride is the only one in the spotlight gown, if the bridesmaids are shadows of her, yeah, she'll always be the centre of the show. Poly is the great unequalizer.
C'mon guys. An entire mass global market of plastic clad sound supressed guitars and nobody will come up with a non-acoustic deadening finish?
That Epi is pretty. It's not truly beautiful. There is a beautiful guitar beneath that finish. You'll never know it.
These guitars begin with good woods and use quality fittings to make something very truly paying homage to the Epis of that formidable company. Why can't Asian factories finish what they started?Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 07-20-2023 at 06:16 AM.
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Fibonacci build them in Korea and spray them with nitro in the UK. I was told it was something to do with Korean health and safety laws? It seems odd given what you say about poly though.
My Loar has a nitro finish, I’ve had it for ten years and it sounds better and betterLast edited by Christian Miller; 07-20-2023 at 06:15 AM.
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Poly is deadly in its application but you can control the environmental leakage better. Everything is stopped dead within the confines of the spray booth. Nitro lacquer is a bit sloppier in that it does make it into the atmosphere in the application process. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I apply lacquer and it has a very strong smell for a short amount of time. Even with a mask, I get headaches. But the inside of that poly booth, dang, it was like a plastic layered cave, from layers of fine mist immediatedly bonded to the inside of the room. That's your lungs without a space suit.
That lacquer Loar, did it feel different in your hands?
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Yes, actually all my main guitars have a nitro finish apart from my Tele. The Loar has opened up over the past decade. I think it’s a diamond in the rough. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Do you know if all Loars have a nitro finish? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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no idea. It was certainly a feature of the acoustic models. Originally Posted by ruger9
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Eastman actually stopped using nitro a few years ago. They now use a product they call Truetone. They're a little but cagey about what it is (e.g., they don't specify on their website), but there are some interviews floating around with Eastman people saying it's a thin catalyzed polyurethane. I have an acoustic (flattop) with this finish. It's a fantastic sounding guitar. I guess the catch is that the sound won't change over time because the finish is fully cured, but that doesn't strike me as a bad thing in this case. My understanding is that this is what Dana Bourgeois uses, and when he merged with Eastman he oversaw the switch in the Eastman finishes. Many other high end builders use polyester of polyurethane finishes, e.g. Taylor uses polyester finishes all the way up their line from what I understand. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
My other guitars are polyurethane (Fender strat), polyester (D'angelico semi-hollow), and nitro (Seventy Seven lam archtop). Honestly, they all feel like plastic (including the nitro) to me. I mean nitro is a kind of plastic, so why wouldn't it? I've had three other nitro guitars (all Gibsons, 1 '60s dread, a 70s SG, and a 90s Les Paul). The finishes were as thick and plasticy on those as any guitar I've had, especially the 90s LP, the neck of which was especially sticky feeling. The flattop had a couple of areas where the finish chipped off, and you could see exactly how thick it was (very). I can't speak to sound comparisons between the finish types because these are all different instruments. All I can really say is that when I buy a guitar, I buy it for how it sounds today, not in anticipation of how it might sound in the future. If it sounds good today (with whatever finish it has) I'm happy.
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Good comments John A. Yes I worked with the thin poly and yes I'm sold on it. It was easy to use, and great for avoiding harmful side effects. It is really hard and thing, which made it more stubborn to rub out but it was really durable and had the right refraction index to bring out nice figure in a curly wood. Good point. Yes. Originally Posted by John A.
I'm glad to hear this is the case. I do hope others follow suit. I wish my JP20 had used that thin poly-in a moment of inspired experimenation, I once removed the poly and refinished a Joe Pass. I can't describe the difference it made! Ibanez poly is and has been thick and if it ever cracks or undergoes checks due to trauma, there's no way to amalgamate the finish like you can with retarder and nitro. Poly can crack and split in ugly ways, and the bond with the wood doesn't seem as integral as the more flexible nitro. When I was working for Ibanez, I saw all sorts of damage and when their poly started to lift, it can come up like ice on a windshield. I'm not an expert so I don't know about the different polys and their worst case scenarios. I only know my experience with nitro touch up is full of tricks and remedies. My experience with poly is Uh Oh-THIS is why I don't like poly.
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How did you remove the poly? I tried to once and it was almost impossible. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
I have an Indonesian strandberg and my buddy has a $500 Chinese worn casino and both are satin. I bet there is a long list of others. Also used to have a Loar, really great value. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Asian factories can certainly do whatever finishes they are hired to do. Most people will prefer the shine of the poly coat and that’s why it’s so prevalent.
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My Indonesian Ibanez AF55 came with a satin poly finish. I polished that to a shine and it is very very thin. I can slighlty feel the wood grain even.
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Two steps beyond almost, believe me. It was extremely time consuming. It involved meticulous work sometimes mm's at at time with a sharp chisel between the finish and the wood, lifting and leveraging so as not to dig into the top ply of the wood. Several sized chisels actually. When I was lucky, large sections would be delaminated and lifted free (most satisfying) but mostly it was like archaelogy, paleontology... Originally Posted by supersoul
Massive removals are out of the question. No sanders (the hardness differential will eat through the wood before a dent is made on the poly), no chemicals, heat is horribly unhealthy but sometimes employed (about a microsecond between when it starts to blister and off gas enough noxious fumes to turn the planet into Venus, and the time when it solidifies into a massive burn crusty mass), no scraping...well some scraping actually. In short, it was heart breakingly difficult because poly is tenacious stuff at the very least. But in the end, cleaned up and finished with McClosky's heirloom (old formula) I got a real idea of the D'Aquisto that the JP20 was based on. Now WHY couldn't they have done that to begin with?
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Sure, the RI got the looks, but unfortunately not the specs. In my eyes, it is a cheap build look alike. What speaks for it, is that it is a rare 25.5 scale archtop with several good specs. Switchcraft output etc. Not sure about the fingerboard. Epiphone themselves say it is ebony, here in Europa some say rosewood. Above all, it is very affordable. Would I buy it? No, I dont think so. But what I find very good about it, is that it is a good start for hopefully many more RI models of the Epi NY era past. Are we going to see a Emperor RI or a Triumph RI or even a Zenith RI in correct specs? Probably not. That would take to much real craftmanship. But, would these type of lookalikes not be very nice? I think so. Keep them coming Epiphone.
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What’s not to like about it? Well, perhaps that it’s rather pricey for an Indonesian made laminated archtop with those specs.
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At least Epiphone is making archtop guitars again.
Can’t say that about Gibson.
The Epiphone Elitist line would be great to see again.
Those Japan made were quite stellar and still very affordable.
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Looking at reverb Epiphone Elitist are going for between $2000 to $4000. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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when they were making them they had a MSRP of $1999 Originally Posted by st.bede
I bought a brand new Elitist Broadway for $1600.
Now I would expect a grand more if they made them again.
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From the tracking on Reverb, it looks like you can now sell your guitar for a good amount more then you paid for it. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
However, to replace it will cost a good amount more also. I have a few guitar that have gone over what I paid.
Matter of fact I sold one a guitar a couple months ago, for a good amount more then I expected. I bought a used Peerless for the going price and had some money left over.
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I was surprised to recently learn that there are again some USA made Epiphones available. The Casino and some flat tops. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Epiphone | Made in USA
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Of course, the list price for these guitars is $3,500-5,000, not $1,200. Originally Posted by 73Fender
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I don't suppose anybody is interested in being the curator of a real 1951 Epiphone Zephyr Deluxe Regent that is in my Reverb store. All the details are in the ad. I can't play like I used to due to an right ulnar nerve insult after neck surgery. It makes sense to start cutting back on my collection since I just turned 70. It pains me to sell. It is almost like the one Billy Bean played and he is my hero. Next I am going to have to decide which of 6 early ES-175's will go on the block. I don't know if I can do it.
Epiphone Zephyr Deluxe Regent 1951 | Reverb
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iirc the us casino was in 2022 not coincidental to the uptick of interest in the model due to the Get Back documentary featuring John Lennon’s famous Casino in his hands pretty much continuously. I wonder how well it did? Originally Posted by 73Fender
I like the idea of Epiphone coming back as a prestige marque I have to say
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gorgeous guitar, but sorry to hear of your circumstances Originally Posted by Easy2grasp
I don't suppose anybody is interested in being the curator of a real 1951 Epiphone Zephyr Deluxe Regent that is in my Reverb store. All the details are in the ad. I can't play like I used to due to an right ulnar nerve insult after neck surgery. It makes sense to start cutting back on my collection since I just turned 70. It pains me to sell. It is almost like the one Billy Bean played and he is my hero. Next I am going to have to decide which of 6 early ES-175's will go on the block. I don't know if I can do it.
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