New Campellone builds

[vinnyv1k]

Gibson refrets - with nibs?

In the 70’s when you bought a new Gibson with their zero frets the 1st thing you had to do was a re-fret so bye-bye nibs.
My brand new L-5 was over pleked with a fret height of only .030 so apparently Gibson is going back to fretless wonders again. I’ve seen some other new Gibson’s also with super low frets. Not enough height for even 1 level and polish.
Good tone and sustain requires a very good crown which you cannot get with very low frets.

Mark’s fret work is superb. Better than any plek machine can ever do.

[Rograt]

I hear you Vinny. My 1980 Korina V has superbly polished frets. The reason is I can’t play the thing because the frets are too low. I should sell it.

Back on topic, my Campellone has perfect frets!

[skykomishone]

Best fret work I have ever played. I wish I could get Mark to re-fret all my Gibson’s.

You won’t find a file mark anywhere too.

I do believe the job he hates the most is the final lacquer buffing.

Very true Vinny.

[MCampellone]

So are you fabricating the metal sections of those tailpieces and plating them yourself or do you farm some of that out and just keep your focus on the wood, inlay, and fret work? Regardless, looking damn good!

I don't have any metal working machinery here - I only make and install the wood appliques for the tailpieces - as for the rest, there are actually four different businesses (all local, fortunately) involved in the fabrication of the tailpieces. The tailpieces are made up in large runs - that being the most efficient and cost effective way to do it. The process starts with a 24" X 96" sheet of brass, .080" thick. The sheet goes to a machine shop where it is sheared into smaller plates, roughly one foot square - a number of plates are stacked and secured together, and the flat tailpiece shapes are cut on a Wire EDM machine (see note below). Once the individual pieces are cut, they go to a sheet-metal shop, where they are bent to form the rim mounting portion and the 'hook' that holds the strings. From there the go to a plater who first sends them to a polisher - once the raw brass pieces have been polished, they go back to the plater where they must first get a nickel underplating, then the gold plating. Finally, they come back here to get the wood appliques. All in all, quite a process....and not cheap either!

note: the Wire EDM cutting process is pretty interesting - the machine is computer controlled and cuts metal using a thin, electrically charged wire - the material to be cut is placed in a tub of water that moves on an X/Y axis - a drawing for the shape of the piece to be cut is programmed into the computer - the charged wire remains stationary, and the tub instead moves according to the computer program to cut the desired shape.

[MCampellone]

Gibson refrets - with nibs?

Speaking of nibs, I've recently seen some NEW Gibson guitars with fret ends going over the binding - no nibs!!!! Has anyone else noticed this???

[TAA]

I’m guessing a plasma cutter would not be precise enough?

Tom

[Rograt]

Great information as ever Mark, adding to the enjoyment of these fine instruments.

A couple of lessons learned for me here. For some reason I had assumed that the tailpieces were steel, not brass. I will look at mine in a new light!

Also, I was completely unaware of the Wire EDM process. I had to look it up.

And, yes, this does all sound expensive, even doing it in batches.

One remaining mystery is how you get the fine lines on the Special and Cameo tailpieces. I always assumed all of the cutting and lines was done in a huge press. Now I have no idea.

Thanks

[Rograt]

Speaking of nibs, I've recently seen some NEW Gibson guitars with fret ends going over the binding - no nibs!!!! Has anyone else noticed this???

I haven’t see any. I just looked online at a relatively entry level Gibson USA SG and that still has them.

[vinnyv1k]

Speaking of nibs, I've recently seen some NEW Gibson guitars with fret ends going over the binding - no nibs!!!! Has anyone else noticed this???

I have seen some nib-less Gibson signature models. Also some of those beat up Murphy lab models that I consider complete nonsense.

[DawgBone]

I don't have any metal working machinery here - I only make and install the wood appliques for the tailpieces - as for the rest, there are actually four different businesses (all local, fortunately) involved in the fabrication of the tailpieces. The tailpieces are made up in large runs - that being the most efficient and cost effective way to do it. The process starts with a 24" X 96" sheet of brass, .080" thick. The sheet goes to a machine shop where it is sheared into smaller plates, roughly one foot square - a number of plates are stacked and secured together, and the flat tailpiece shapes are cut on a Wire EDM machine (see note below). Once the individual pieces are cut, they go to a sheet-metal shop, where they are bent to form the rim mounting portion and the 'hook' that holds the strings. From there the go to a plater who first sends them to a polisher - once the raw brass pieces have been polished, they go back to the plater where they must first get a nickel underplating, then the gold plating. Finally, they come back here to get the wood appliques. All in all, quite a process....and not cheap either!

note: the Wire EDM cutting process is pretty interesting - the machine is computer controlled and cuts metal using a thin, electrically charged wire - the material to be cut is placed in a tub of water that moves on an X/Y axis - a drawing for the shape of the piece to be cut is programmed into the computer - the charged wire remains stationary, and the tub instead moves according to the computer program to cut the desired shape.

Mark, thanks for taking the time to make such a thorough reply.

I am aware of the cost of brass and other metals, crazy money right now especially, and plating services, which is also completely nuts. I just spent 30 bucks shipped for two 1/2x20 fine thread titanium shock bolts for a bike I'm building. I guess the upside is those look amazing. Some of the nicest looking tailpiece sections I have seen on a guitar ever. Interested to hear about Rograts question about the fine lines. My guess is the EDM machine cuts them? The lines really sets that tailpiece apart when combined with the wood appliques. Your description about how the wire EDM works is amazing, had no idea it was cut underwater in the fashion you described. Keep up the good luthierin'!

[rlrhett]

Quick overview on EDM machining:

Not sure why the tailpieces need this level of precision, but in the immortal words of Jessica Simpson:

I totally don’t know what that means, but I want it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Rograt]

175 Tailpiece

[Rograt]

Cameo Tailpiece - you can feel the difference. Of course this may be a byproduct. Setting up a press would usually be done for mass production. Either way it’s a nice result.

[MCampellone]

Quick overview on EDM machining:

Not sure why the tailpieces need this level of precision, but in the immortal words of Jessica Simpson:

I totally don’t know what that means, but I want it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, wire EDM's can cut to unbelievably fine tolerances - much finer than you'd need for guitar parts - I don't know how plasma cutting would compare cost-wise with EDM cutting, but I imagine they'd be pretty close. I went with EDM cutting because there are EDM shops locally, so it was convenient - also, EDM cutting leaves a cleaner edge than plasma cutting -

[MCampellone]

Mark, thanks for taking the time to make such a thorough reply.

I am aware of the cost of brass and other metals, crazy money right now especially, and plating services, which is also completely nuts. I just spent 30 bucks shipped for two 1/2x20 fine thread titanium shock bolts for a bike I'm building. I guess the upside is those look amazing. Some of the nicest looking tailpiece sections I have seen on a guitar ever. Interested to hear about Rograts question about the fine lines. My guess is the EDM machine cuts them? The lines really sets that tailpiece apart when combined with the wood appliques. Your description about how the wire EDM works is amazing, had no idea it was cut underwater in the fashion you described. Keep up the good luthierin'!

Yeah, these days, with the cost of brass, gold and machine shop hourly rates, I have to shell out quite a bit of cash to have a run of tailpieces made - the last run I did was for 40 pieces, and all tolled, the completed pieces cost me about $117 each (do the math - lol) - and that's without the ebony appliques : )

As for the lines in the Special and Cameo tailpieces, the EDM doesn't do that type of cutting as the charged wire feeds through the entire thickness of the material being cut. After the pieces are cut, the grooves on each piece are cut individually on a milling machine.

The nice thing about EDM cutting is that you can stack material to cut multiple pieces in one pass - a plasma cutter can cut up to about 1" thickness of material - but an EDM can cut up to 18" of material thickness, so you could stack a LOT of pieces, with close to perfect cut accuracy through the entire stack. Here's a cool pic of the stacked brass plates after the tailpieces have been cut from them -

[Rograt]

Fabulous details Mark. Many thanks for taking the trouble.

[bluejaybill]

Best fret work I have ever played. I wish I could get Mark to re-fret all my Gibson’s.

You won’t find a file mark anywhere too.

I do believe the job he hates the most is the final lacquer buffing.

I'll second that, Mark's fretwork is second to none!

[MCampellone]

I haven’t see any. I just looked online at a relatively entry level Gibson USA SG and that still has them.

A while back, when watching a Gibson factory tour video, I thought I saw in the background a pile of fingerboards that were already bound but unfretted, which of course means that once installed, the ends of the frets would have to go over the binding - I was surprised because I'd never heard of Gibson using this method - thought maybe I just wasn't seeing things right in the video - then I happened to see this review on youtube, comparing this new Les Paul (a real Gibson one) to another guitar - and sure enough, it had frets over the binding. Here's the guitar and a close-up of the fingerboard -

(Oh, and here's my disclaimer - I gather that you're supposed to avoid going off topic on these threads, but since I'm relatively new to the forum, I hope I'm allowed this one transgression - lol)

[vinnyv1k]

No worries Mark - derailing a post is what we do best around here.
Factually it’s pretty rare when it doesn’t happen.

Just beware of Gibson posts. They can turn pretty ugly.
It is always a love / hate subject.

[jim777]

Will that keep you going for today?

That will get me through the 4th of July!

[jim777]

These are also of the amberburst Special from page 3

[vinnyv1k]

WOW - that Special is…….well, Special. Gorgeous woods and finish like melted glass. A early Congrats

[John A.]

Circa 2014-15, Gibson made Les Pauls without nibs for a while (maybe some other models, too). They went back to nibs after about a year.

[Gilpy]

[marcwhy]

Oh yeah!!