Send this to Lord Valve...

[Onlyserious]

Interesting article for the tube/true believers. Tubes were never my obsession, and now I'm too old and deaf to hear subtle differences... And I love my small Hughes and Kettner acoustic amp with a full range speaker for all my amplification needs.

I am rooting this guy on, however!


One Man’s Quest to Revive the Great American Vacuum Tube | WIRED

[Stringswinger]

I will probably buy some of these tubes once production starts. I am unimpressed with Chinese and Russian made tubes. Slovakian made tubes are good (JJ's), but if these new tubes can sound and last like the old RCA tubes, they will be worth paying for (assuming a price point below $150 per tube). While I use my solid state amps for gigs, at home my vintage, Blackface Princeton gets the play. And the RCA tubes that I have in that amp sound great.

Lord Valve? Wasn't he some cranky owner of an amp company in Colorado who used to post on the Usenet group? IIRC, he did not even play guitar.

[SandChannel]

It is nice to see tubes being made domestically, but I have a feeling they will cost way, way more than I am prepared to pay. I think this will whole project will geared more towards booteek gear sniffers than working musicians. I hope I am wrong.

[DawgBone]

According to the article I have to buy 100 foreign sourced tubes to find 30 that I like, says Justin Norvell, vice president at Fender. So what am I supposed to make of modern Fender amps then? Are they junk? I would agree with that statement. Thanks for clarifying, Justin.

I buy JJ 6L6's and they are always legit. Sound great, are fairly priced, and have been exceedingly durable. I buy JJ ECC803s gold pins for the more important preamp tubes and they also sound great and are reliable. Phase inverters and other stuff don't really care what quality of tubes get put in there. That article is essentially one giant garbage advertisement and completely full of crap IME.

[Klatu]

Thanks for posting. It's good to see that manufacturing is still possible in the US.

[wintermoon]

Besides sound the big difference between modern tubes and vintage are durability.
Many of my 60 yr old Fenders still have most of their original preamp tubes, some even have the orig power tubes.
No JJ is gonna last that long.
We'll see what happens w this new factory.

[P4guitar]

Lord Valve? Wasn't he some cranky owner of an amp company in Colorado who used to post on the Usenet group? IIRC, he did not even play guitar.

He owned an amp repair company and at one time made his own amps. He was pure analog and disdained anything digital or solid state. I don't think he was cranky, but had a quick tongue for those he disagreed with. I would characterize him as a MAGA type conservative who despised liberals. I believe he died a year or two ago. He played the organ and did it well, I thought.

[DawgBone]

Besides sound the big difference between modern tubes and vintage are durability.
Many of my 60 yr old Fenders still have most of their original preamp tubes, some even have the orig power tubes.
No JJ is gonna last that long.
We'll see what happens w this new factory.

Durability meaning what though? I have somewhere approaching a thousand gigs, rehearsals, and studio sessions on a JJ loaded Twin, most of which were done pushing the amp towards it's output limit. I changed one v2 preamp tube in that time as it was a long plate tube that went microphonic.

Seeing as most amps spend their days sitting in a closet or bedroom someone saying their NOS tubes still work great is kind of anecdotal unless you can show actual service life in hours or at least provide an estimate. I bought a '69 Twin that had some NOS tubes that didn't last long once I put it back into routine gigging service. Neither did some of the internal components.

[SandChannel]

I would characterize him as a MAGA type conservative who despised liberals. I believe he died a year or two ago.

Geez. He took that Biden win particularly hard...

[wintermoon]

Durability meaning what though? I have somewhere approaching a thousand gigs, rehearsals, and studio sessions on a JJ loaded Twin, most of which were done pushing the amp towards it's output limit. I changed one v2 preamp tube in that time as it was a long plate tube that went microphonic.

Seeing as most amps spend their days sitting in a closet or bedroom someone saying their NOS tubes still work great is kind of anecdotal unless you can show actual service life in hours or at least provide an estimate. I bought a '69 Twin that had some NOS tubes that didn't last long once I put it back into routine gigging service. Neither did some of the internal components.

I'm not talking about amps sitting in a closet, I've been gigging for 40 yrs and in all that time I've only had 1 rectifier and 1 power tube fail and 2 preamp tubes turn microphonic. the materials were better, the tolerances were stricter etc.
when you've been gigging those JJ's that long get back to me, it's not hype, it's just a fact that vintage tubes last longer.

[DawgBone]

I'm not talking about amps sitting in a closet, I've been gigging for 40 yrs and in all that time I've only had 1 rectifier and 1 power tube fail and 2 preamp tubes turn microphonic. the materials were better, the tolerances were stricter etc.
when you've been gigging those JJ's that long get back to me, it's not hype, it's just a fact that vintage tubes last longer.

You've been gigging 40 years. That's anecdotal. 25 gigs per year? 50 gigs per year? 100 gigs per year? 200? If you gigged every day that's 14600 gigs which would be damn impressive whereas if you averaged 25 gigs per year that is roughly the same amount of use the amp I mentioned, about a 1000 gigs/rehearsals, has received over the course of about six years.

[wintermoon]

up until the pandemic I was gigging a minimum of 3 times a week, the majority being Hammond B-3 gigs, most w/out a PA, so it's not like the tubes were babied. I typically used a blackface Twin but sometimes especially lately, a blackface Vibrolux.
1000 gigs on JJ's is pretty good, better than most people I know that use them. I can't remember when the tubes failed but it was many years ago.
I'm not saying JJ's are junk, they're just not as durable as vintage tubes.

edited for content....

[DawgBone]

up until the pandemic I was gigging a minimum of 3 times a week
1000 gigs on JJ's is pretty good, better than most people I know that use them.
I'm not saying JJ's are junk, they're just not as durable as vintage tubes.

So 4000 gigs. Pretty good. Power tube failure once. So how many gigs before the power tube failed? 2023-40 equals 1983. Which year did your tube pop off? I'm guessing you are a jazz guy so what amp are we talking about and how hard do you run it? Mine is mostly on 10 and has taken a real pounding so I am satisfied with the JJ's enough that I will leave my white box GE's in the same NOS condition they are now. I still have half a dozen sets of JJ's left which means I'm good to go until I'm too old to do it anymore, lol.

[Stringswinger]

So 4000 gigs. Pretty good. Power tube failure once. So how many gigs before the power tube failed? 2023-40 equals 1983. Which year did your tube pop off? I'm guessing you are a jazz guy so what amp are we talking about and how hard do you run it? Mine is mostly on 10 and has taken a real pounding so I am satisfied with the JJ's enough that I will leave my white box GE's in the same NOS condition they are now. I still have half a dozen sets of JJ's left which means I'm good to go until I'm too old to do it anymore, lol.

JJ's have been my "New" tube choice for years. They sound good and last quite awhile. But NOS American 6V6 and 12AX7 tubes sound better for what I do (jazz) and while the two sets of NOS tubes that I have will likely last me till I am six feet under, I sure would like another set, just to be sure. If Western Electric makes them and they are not stupidly expensive, I will buy a set.

I have a full set of JJ's and when I take my tube amp out (not often these days. I gig about 3 times a week and maybe take my tube amp out a few times a year), I use the JJ's for live performance. I figure that a) being newer and having low hours on them, they are probably more reliable than the 50-70 year old RCA tubes that I have and b) in a live music setting, the tonal difference cannot be heard anyway.

[Jimmy Mack]

I wish him luck, and I want to see him survive. And as an aside, we may all have some tubes to rely on. What will the tone offerings be like?
Prices ??? They're all expensive now.
Reliability?? The newer tubes all seem to be hit and miss. If I needed new ones, I guess JJ would be the target, but I did not care too much for the tone I got from their 12ax7's a few years back. EL 84's YES! great tone.

If this guy gets it up and running, and can get the prices in favor, I suppose amp manufacturers will be the winners. I'll have to ask Andy Fuchs his thoughts. I have stopped gigging, so my amps are resting. But man, I love the tone of some great tubes.

[ruger9]

JJ for durability, EHX and Tung-Sol for tone.

NOS for REAL tone, if you can afford it (I no longer can, with the exception of an NOS AT7 or 5AR4 or 12DW7 here and there for my home amps...)

[SandChannel]

JJ for durability, EHX and Tung-Sol for tone.

NOS for REAL tone, if you can afford it (I no longer can, with the exception of an NOS AT7 or 5AR4 or 12DW7 here and there for my home amps...)

I agree that the JJs seem to last a long while and that the Tung-Sol seem to sound sweeter or less rigid. That said, I have purchased NOS tubes/valves over the years and there is nothing worse than one of them deciding to go microphonic after a few months use - after 60 years of sitting in a box. Plus, there are so many companies re-badging that it requires a doctorate to even know what is legit anymore. My only tube amp nowadays is a Marshall and it doesn't seem to get too bothered by whatever I stick in it. Modern amps seem to make up for the lack of NOS tubes whereas vintage amps probably sound better with what they were designed with at the time.

[DawgBone]

I don't think those tubes are set to be cheap at all. I'm pretty certain he's gearing his tubes to be audiophile quality. I wanna say I saw somewhere that the 300's are set to cost about $300 each or more but that could be totally wrong. I thought he was moving to production faster than it appears he actually is as I heard about this story sometime in the middle of last year. Dude is almost 70 so he could die before his dream happens....

For a comparison the JJ 300 goes for $200 each and a NOS Western Electric 300b is priced at 3k through tube depot for a 70's made version while a 1961 NOS matched duo is listed for 10k, lol. Ebay has a duo for 3k so maybe a "price break" is possible but that is still rich archtop collector prices even if we are talking about more commonplace guitar amp tubes.

No doubt someone will show up on some guitar forum with an amp filled with them and singing their praises the way people sing the praises of NOS and also aren't able to tell them apart in a blind test the same way most other gear is.

[SandChannel]

No doubt someone will show up on some guitar forum with an amp filled with them and singing their praises the way people sing the praises of NOS and also aren't able to tell them apart in a blind test the same way most other gear is.

Yup!

[jim777]

I don't think those tubes are set to be cheap at all. I'm pretty certain he's gearing his tubes to be audiophile quality. I wanna say I saw somewhere that the 300's are set to cost about $300 each or more but that could be totally wrong. I thought he was moving to production faster than it appears he actually is as I heard about this story sometime in the middle of last year. Dude is almost 70 so he could die before his dream happens....

For a comparison the JJ 300 goes for $200 each and a NOS Western Electric 300b is priced at 3k through tube depot for a 70's made version while a 1961 NOS matched duo is listed for 10k, lol. Ebay has a duo for 3k so maybe a "price break" is possible but that is still rich archtop collector prices even if we are talking about more commonplace guitar amp tubes.

No doubt someone will show up on some guitar forum with an amp filled with them and singing their praises the way people sing the praises of NOS and also aren't able to tell them apart in a blind test the same way most other gear is.

From 404 Page — Western Electric - Maker of electron tubes and high fidelity

Matched Pair $1499 • Single Tube $699
Matched Quad $3099

[SandChannel]

From 404 Page — Western Electric - Maker of electron tubes and high fidelity

Matched Pair $1499 • Single Tube $699
Matched Quad $3099

[DawgBone]

From 404 Page — Western Electric - Maker of electron tubes and high fidelity

Matched Pair $1499 • Single Tube $699
Matched Quad $3099

I'd jump in the ol' Maybach and grab a dozen quads on my way to Martha's Vineyard but these gas prices won't allow that.

[Cunamara]

He owned an amp repair company and at one time made his own amps. He was pure analog and disdained anything digital or solid state. I don't think he was cranky, but had a quick tongue for those he disagreed with. I would characterize him as a MAGA type conservative who despised liberals. I believe he died a year or two ago. He played the organ and did it well, I thought.

He was MAGA long before Donald Trump and prided himself on ruining that and several other newsgroups. He was beyond sad IMHO.

EDIT: that being said, by reputation he knew his way around a tube amp quite well.

[stevo58]

When this became public last year, they (WestElec) ran an article and a poll. They are targeting the guitar market, and want to know what types beyond 12ax7 players want.

The prices will obviously be higher than Chinese, Russian, or Czech tubes. The intention, though, was to avoid astronomical prices. WE expanded several years ago, and this was part of the plan.

The prices listed earlier are for 300B triodes, generally considered the finest and most linear Hi-Fi output tube ever made. The people with stereos that require them wouldn’t blink at the price. The tungsten used allegedly comes from a stock produced in 1961 or thereabouts, as apparently it is no longer possible to legally refine tungsten to the required quality.

There have been a number of attempts to restart western tube manufacturing, most recently in England ten years ago. All disappeared without a trace. WE is the first that can be taken seriously, since they already do it and are the only manufacturer in the world that actually has equipment that wasn’t built in the 1950s. The last time I was on their site (>10y ago) they still manufactured specialized miniature (Noval)preamp tubes for Hi-Fi. They seem to have restricted it to the 300B now.

But we’ll see. $70 for a preamp tube is ok, if the quality is good, factored over the life of a preamp tube. In my opinion. I wouldn’t use one as a tremolo oscillator. Input tube, definitely; that might be enough.


As far as Lord Valve (I think his name was Willie) goes; it helped to view him as a comedian. If you want to read stuff from an old guy who has been at it for decades, knows pretty much everything there is to know, and isn’t a curmudgeon, you want PRR over at the Hoffman forum (el34world)

Steven

[SandChannel]

Electrons don't care how they move from Point A to Point B and tungsten from 1961 is not going to change that. There is a law of diminishing returns to all this stuff and people are buying into the mythology rather than trusting their ears.