What Is Going On With The Gibson Brand Now?

[jim777]

Getting good wood and large pieces is getting very hard.
Most 1 piece laminate tops and backs used to be 1 piece. Now 2.

Mark Campellone told me his great wood sources have dried up and when he finds good wood it is a fortune price wise.

I am sure Gibson is having the same problem. Maybe another reason they don’t make 175’s anymore. Can’t do 1 piece tops.
I think this is the future.

Agreed: you often Love on the look, but you Play the neck and Judge on the sound. When you switch those up on new guitars you get screwed (sometimes).

[Woody Sound]

Mark Campellone told me his great wood sources have dried up and when he finds good wood it is a fortune price wise.

I would like to know what qualifies as good wood. (besides figuring). Seriously.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I would like to know what qualifies as good wood. (besides figuring). Seriously.

aged and seasoned?

[stratology]

Does Gibson under current ownership still donate to political parties?




Regarding multi-part necks:

Attaching the headstock via a scarf joint always makes the neck more stable, because of grain direction on the vulnerable point where the headstock meets the neck.

When laminated necks age, you will always be able to feel the lines where the different pieces of wood meet, because, over the years, different pieces of wood move differently.
This could only be fixed by removing the lacquer, sanding the back of the neck, then re-finishing.
Most people just learn to live with it, just as they do with dents and scratches on the back of an old neck.

[Alter]

However, there is a reason that scarf joint is usually found on cheaper guitars, and is mostly a cost reduction thing, because less wood is needed for the neck if there is a headstock angle (Gibson style).

I would like to know what qualifies as good wood. (besides figuring). Seriously.

Many builders will just tap on a piece of wood, especially tops, and if it's good it is just vibrating with tone. I remember a few doing that when i was visiting workshops years ago to commission an archtop. And then of course as mentioned how the wood has aged and dried, both for good sound and for avoiding problems down the road.

[Doctor Jeff]

I would like to know what qualifies as good wood. (besides figuring). Seriously.

At my age any wood is good wood.

[Doctor Jeff]

Does Gibson under current ownership still donate to political parties?.

They would be stupid if they didn’t donate to both parties, but JMO a large investment company has a different “political” strategy than a plain old instrument company. It’s all about protecting investments and tax breaks. I can’t imagine they’re too concerned about wood from protected species or whatever kept Henry awake at night.

[Stringswinger]

They would stupid if they didn’t donate to both parties, but JMO a large investment company has a different “political” strategy than a plain old instrument company. It’s all about protecting investments and tax breaks. I can’t imagine they’re too concerned about wood from protected species or whatever kept Henry awake at night.

You are quite right. Back in my days of practicing law, I had a client who had pictures of himself, in his own office, with George Bush (Sr.) and Bill Clinton. My client, who was worth hundreds of millions, was a Republican, but gave to both parties as the payoff for him in tax breaks happened regardless of who won. Big political contributions in America are like playing a slot machine that always wins. We have the best government that money can buy, literally.

[stratology]

They would stupid if they didn’t donate to both parties, but JMO a large investment company has a different “political” strategy than a plain old instrument company. It’s all about protecting investments and tax breaks. I can’t imagine they’re too concerned about wood from protected species or whatever kept Henry awake at night.

You are quite right. Back in my days of practicing law, I had a client who had pictures of himself, in his own office, with George Bush (Sr.) and Bill Clinton. My client, who was worth hundreds of millions, was a Republican, but gave to both parties as the payoff for him in tax breaks happened regardless of who won. Big political contributions in America are like playing a slot machine that always wins. We have the best government that money can buy, literally.

Interesting perspective. I find donating to any political party massively off-putting for a musical instrument company. A good enough reason not to buy from a company.

Political affiliations are part of branding. Both Ted Nugent and Tom Morello - who happen to be friends - have a clear, outspoken political identity that is part of their brand. Which also means, supporters of their respective opposing party are much less likely to buy their music and go to their concerts.


Gibson is a company that sells globally, not only in the US. Which means that, for non-Americans, like myself, affiliation with US centric, super divisive politics is even more bizarre.
The concept you mention - buying politicians for better tax breaks - did not even occur to me. I do think that the actual politics a company supports financially do matter.


Politics and religion are divisive by nature. I do not think that engaging actively in divisiveness is a prudent business strategy.


Well, except for advertising companies like Facebook, where creating divisiveness means 'engagement', which means better ad revenue...

[stratology]

However, there is a reason that scarf joint is usually found on cheaper guitars, and is mostly a cost reduction thing, because less wood is needed for the neck if there is a headstock angle (Gibson style).

True. But - Gibson headstock breaks seem fairly common.

My best acoustic guitar has a laminated neck, and a scarf joint. Not for cost reasons.



Neck and headstock:



Grain direction of headstock and neck:

[John A.]

However, there is a reason that scarf joint is usually found on cheaper guitars, and is mostly a cost reduction thing, because less wood is needed for the neck if there is a headstock angle (Gibson style).

Not necessarily. The type of scarf joint where the joint is down several frets and is not just the headstock is for cost saving. But a true scarf headstock joint is for strength and is found on some expensive guitars.

[John A.]

When laminated necks age, you will always be able to feel the lines where the different pieces of wood meet, because, over the years, different pieces of wood move differently.
This could only be fixed by removing the lacquer, sanding the back of the neck, then re-finishing.
Most people just learn to live with it, just as they do with dents and scratches on the back of an old neck.

That has not been my experience. I’ve had several guitars (currently have two) with multi piece necks, and I’ve never felt the joints. The “skunk stripe on Fenders, yes, but not lengthwise laminations, or scarf neck splices.

[Archie]

I've never had any issues with laminated necks.

Regarding political affiliations; I gave up listening to politicians some time ago. No matter who you vote for, they always get in.
I try to pay attention to things I can control and avoid those I can't.

Of course if you're incredibly wealthy, have at it; It's probably worth while.

[ccroft]

I would like to know what qualifies as good wood. (besides figuring). Seriously.

For the more structural parts of a guitar like the neck and bracing, you want wood with straight and consistent grain. More annular rings are more desirable than less. IE tighter grain. You don't want sapwood inclusions, too many mineral streaks or other 'flaws'. It's about uniformity in strength and dimensional stability; as the wood takes on or loses moisture from humidity it will swell or shrink consistently. IE not warp or crack. And we want lumber that's been milled as close to a perfect quarter as we can get. Some guys saw their own rounds to get this, as most commercial mills don't do it perfectly and don't really need to for most uses. They can get better yields from a tree by cheating a bit.

It's been stated that the light stripe in the OP's pics might be sapwood. I've never seen such a straight and clear transition from heart to sap, but if it is sapwood I'd still fire the guy that didn't pull that plank from neck production and use it somewhere else. Sapwood is softer than heart, less strong and reacts to humidity differently than heartwood. So what you'd have there is an unbalanced construction that would be less stable than if it was all heartwood.

When folks hire us to make a mahogany piece they fully expect it to be a consistent brown color. They're going to freak if one leg of a chair has a half inch white stripe running down it. You have to pay for it, but you can't use sapwood unless it's been discussed with the client and used in an artful and deliberate way.

So that goes to another factor in looking for a good piece of lumber: yield. How much are you going to have to eat. We're looking for large pieces that are attractive and structurally consistent. And those are getting used up. EG: plantation mahogany trees aren't as big as the old behemoths that were felled in the middle 20th century and before.

And as mentioned before, the wood must be slowly and properly dried to the correct moisture content for it's intended final place of use. Kiln drying is fine as long as it's not done too quickly, which causes internal stresses that can cause the wood to react inconsistently to cutting and humidity changes.

All lumber isn't necessarily good lumber, at any age :-)

[st.bede]

Politics are only devises because it serves purposes that are manipulative. Over all most people agree on a bunch of stuff, and can respectfully disagree with each other. Fear tactics work but are destructive on both individual and a societal level.

[jazzkritter]

Sorry missing the link from mahogany necks to politics.

Let others have their own politics.
Let others have their own religion, or lack there of.
Its truly none of your (or my) business what others think, do or do not believe in.

world would be a happier place, y’know.

Like Rodney King said:
”Why cant we all just get along”
jk

[st.bede]

Theoretically we have a responsibility to listen to each other and come up with solutions. However my expectations of that responsibility being taken seriously has diminished over the years. I seriously doubt anyone but the powerful would enjoy living in a society that dismisses the responsibility of open communication with a desire for solutions.

[stratology]

Sorry missing the link from mahogany necks to politics.

Let others have their own politics.
Let others have their own religion, or lack there of.
Its truly none of your (or my) business what others think, do or do not believe in.

world would be a happier place, y’know.

Like Rodney King said:
”Why cant we all just get along”
jk

Fully agree.

But - politics are not just discussions and empty words.

Here in Europe, we don't have school shootings. So you may understand the reluctance of buying from a company that helps finance politicians (in this case, from both parties - there are only 2 parties in the US) that do not value the lives of children.

To name just one example.



So I agree with you - let Americans do whatever they want to their kids, because it's their way of life.
But I don't have to support it financially.

[Litterick]

Regardless of what party the maker supports, I would prefer to buy a guitar made in a country where workers can vote, than in a one-party state that persecutes its ethnic minorities.

[stratology]

Regardless of what party the maker supports, I would prefer to buy a guitar made in a country where workers can vote, than in a one-party state that persecutes its ethnic minorities.

That's one step further down the rabbit hole, where we don't just look at what a company actively does, but where it's located.


Which makes it even more tricky. I've always liked Apple products. One of the many things I liked about the company is that, until recently, they didn't have any lobbyists in Washington. They have production facilities in China (and other countries), that belong to other companies, like Foxconn, which manufacture for Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Intel, Dell, Toshiba, Sony, Nintendo, Acer, Lenovo, and many others as well. Reports of horrible working conditions. Apple is actively and credibly trying to improve on that - but they're still dealing with a different company, in a different country.
Bad enough to not buy any Apple, Amazon, Lenovo products?

[m_d]

Interesting perspective. I find donating to any political party massively off-putting for a musical instrument company. A good enough reason not to buy from a company.

Political affiliations are part of branding. Both Ted Nugent and Tom Morello - who happen to be friends - have a clear, outspoken political identity that is part of their brand. Which also means, supporters of their respective opposing party are much less likely to buy their music and go to their concerts.


Gibson is a company that sells globally, not only in the US. Which means that, for non-Americans, like myself, affiliation with US centric, super divisive politics is even more bizarre.
The concept you mention - buying politicians for better tax breaks - did not even occur to me. I do think that the actual politics a company supports financially do matter.


Politics and religion are divisive by nature. I do not think that engaging actively in divisiveness is a prudent business strategy.


Well, except for advertising companies like Facebook, where creating divisiveness means 'engagement', which means better ad revenue...

I'm European too - or rather Swiss, French born. Why not say it? It's not aimed at you in particular, but what's up with this "I'm European" business - I see it everywhere ? You never hear someone from Japan or India say "I'm Asian". Europe is not a country, has no sovereignty - will never be, will never have, and no amount of wishful thinking from so-called elites will make it so. Prediction: that whole construct is gonna explode sooner or later. It will be back to "I'm French", "I'm Spanish", etc., and taking responsibility for our destiny. And back to your issue, by your reasoning European companies that should be avoided number in the dozens, not mentioning the fact that corporate politicization is vastly more prevalent on the other side of the political divide, but if you point it out, you're a right-wing nutjob. And unless one has been living under a rock, "Europeans" lecturing Americans about corruption is frankly, a bit over the top. Europe is just as corrupt!

[stratology]

I'm European too - or rather Swiss, French born. Why not say it? It's not aimed at you in particular, but what's up with this "I'm European" business - I see it everywhere ? You never hear someone from Japan or India say "I'm Asian". Europe is not a country, has no sovereignty - will never be, will never have, and no amount of wishful thinking from so-called elites will make it so. Prediction: that whole construct is gonna explode sooner or later. It will be back to "I'm French", "I'm Spanish", etc., and taking responsibility for our destiny. And back to your issue, by your reasoning European companies that should be avoided number in the dozens, not mentioning the fact that corporate politicization is vastly more prevalent on the other side of the political divide, but if you point it out, you're a right-wing nutjob. And unless one has been living under a rock, "Europeans" lecturing Americans about corruption is frankly, a bit over the top. Europe is just as corrupt!

Wow, hold your horses.

I was born in one European country, but live in another one. Same currency. No hard borders. No need for work visas when you move between EU countries.

One thing that European countries have in common, that differentiates them from the US, is politics: there are more than 2 parties, and when there are elections, the person with the most votes actually wins.


One thing where there is no difference between Europe and the US is that politicians are various levels of corrupt.
Another thing where there's no difference is corporate greed and behaviour. Generally various levels of corruption.
Not sure what you read into my previous post, but I never claimed that the US is more corrupt than, say, Italy - because it's not.



To clarify my point:
If a US guitar company makes political donations, I'm reluctant to purchase their goods.
If a guitar company in the EU or UK makes political donations, I'm reluctant to purchase their goods.



One of the great things about being musicians is that there are inherent commonalities across all countries, all over the globe. A French and an American musician have more in common than an American butcher and an American stock broker.
Mixing up music and politics works against that. Divisiveness, vs. commonalities.
If you would allege that this is a pet peeve of mine, you might quite possibly be correct.

[Stringswinger]

Fully agree.

But - politics are not just discussions and empty words.

Here in Europe, we don't have school shootings. So you may understand the reluctance of buying from a company that helps finance politicians (in this case, from both parties - there are only 2 parties in the US) that do not value the lives of children.

To name just one example.



So I agree with you - let Americans do whatever they want to their kids, because it's their way of life.
But I don't have to support it financially.

Posting that the Republican party doesn't value the lives of children is both incendiary and stupid. The members of the GOP value the lives of children just as much as members of the Democratic Party do.

Yes we here in American value civilian firearm ownership. And because of it we have not had to suffer the loss of millions of lives when tyrants like Hitler and Stalin come to power. That includes the loss of millions of innocent children.

If you don't want to buy a Gibson guitar because of some political contribution that Henry J made to the GOP, that is certainly up to you. IMO, is the end result is that you don't get to own a guitar made by the finest guitar maker in the world.

[DawgBone]

Fully agree.

But - politics are not just discussions and empty words.

Here in Europe, we don't have school shootings. So you may understand the reluctance of buying from a company that helps finance politicians (in this case, from both parties - there are only 2 parties in the US) that do not value the lives of children.

To name just one example.



So I agree with you - let Americans do whatever they want to their kids, because it's their way of life.
But I don't have to support it financially.

Your reason for not buying a Gibson is pretty silly.

Would you buy local produce at a farmer's market from someone whose politics were different than yours? Do you investigate all your purchases to the same level of detail or is it just because you have guitar fetish and it carries more perceived importance than say, where your socks were manufactured?

Here in TX we don't allow abortions to be handed out like candy so you might understand my reluctance towards eating french cut green beans, wearing a three piece suit, or doing a puzzle of the Eiffel tower with my kids.

Honestly if you want a better reason for not buying a Gibson it's because they treat their employees like shit but the problem is you likely buy a lot of the same chinese junk we all do and they treat their employees worse. Who made your guitar is a better soapbox to preach from than who made the tires on your car or who produced the stainless steel your kitchen appliances are made from.

[stratology]

Posting that the Republican party doesn't value the lives of children is both incendiary and stupid. The members of the GOP value the lives of children just as much as members of the Democratic Party do.

Yes we here in American value civilian firearm ownership. And because of it we have not had to suffer the loss of millions of lives when tyrants like Hitler and Stalin come to power. That includes the loss of millions of innocent children.

If you don't want to buy a Gibson guitar because of some political contribution that Henry J made to the GOP, that is certainly up to you. IMO, is the end result is that you don't get to own a guitar made by the finest guitar maker in the world.

Wow, a gun enthusiast trying to interpret my post as leaning towards one party? Bizarre.



The number one cause of death for children in the US is gunshot wounds.

One party deals with it by offering thoughts and prayers, nothing else.
The other party deals with it by lowering flags to half mast, nothing else.

None of the people in power, regardless of political affiliation, cares enough about kids to do anything more than sad looks, and hand waiving.