FRFR Thoughts?

[Silentwiz]

What are the collective thoughts on using a lightweight FRFR PA-style speaker such as the QSC K8.2 or CP8 plus a small preamp/direct box such as the Quilter Phantom Block, Iridium, Dream65 or Joyo Sound as a super portable (and versatile) jazz rig?

For jazz, I'd only be looking for the most basic rolled off tone from a tele with TI Flatwounds, so nothing to special.

I presume this would be a pretty sweet setup that I could use for a lot of other purposes (such as an acoustic gig or general PA use).

Lastly, if I wanted to play electric bass though this rig, am I stuck with a 10" PA speaker or would the 8" be "good enough" for a Carol Kaye backed off thump?

[jorgemg1984]

I've done that plenty of times, with a Mambo PA cab (same size as their 10 regular combo, quite small and lightly). I've found the Mambo to be better sounding and lighter than any "regular" PA cab - even the small ones can be quite bulky.

I recommend something with Impulse Responses, which are very realistic these days. Analog cab simulations (like the one on the Jouyo) work but are not on the same league. With IRs you can "change speakers" all the time, is like getting a new amp

I was using a Barber Barb EQ (blackface amp), a Zoom MS70CDR (tuner, eq and reverb) and a Logidy Epsi (for impulse responses). The Iridium or the Dream 65 can replace this entire rig (minus the tuner). Bear in mind the Iridium allows for 3rd party impulse responses, while the Dream 65 does not. The Dream 65, in theory, has a better reverb - no direct experience.

Given the price of either the Iridum or the Dream 65 I would consider an HX Stomp, if you can sacrifice simplicity - it's a killer rig for 500€ and what I would buy today if I were having gigs.

Hope this helps!

[rpjazzguitar]

What are the collective thoughts on using a lightweight FRFR PA-style speaker such as the QSC K8.2 or CP8 plus a small preamp/direct box such as the Quilter Phantom Block, Iridium, Dream65 or Joyo Sound as a super portable (and versatile) jazz rig?

For jazz, I'd only be looking for the most basic rolled off tone from a tele with TI Flatwounds, so nothing to special.

I presume this would be a pretty sweet setup that I could use for a lot of other purposes (such as an acoustic gig or general PA use).

Lastly, if I wanted to play electric bass though this rig, am I stuck with a 10" PA speaker or would the 8" be "good enough" for a Carol Kaye backed off thump?

I think it can work great, but I would have a couple of concerns. I find that there's a sweet spot where the fizzy sound in the upper register goes away but the overall tone still isn't too dull. I've used my DV Mark Little Jazz through a PA speaker this way and it works great. The LJ is somehow voiced so I can get the sweet spot and the FR PA speaker doesn't screw it up. But, with other amps it's harder to get in the sweet spot. The LJ weighs 15 lbs. The Bud/Blu are closer to 12 I think and should do at least as well.

The combination you're thinking about involves the pedal, its power supply and the powered speaker. They total around 22-23 lbs. apparently.

For some situations, all you would need is an LJ or Bud or Blu and that would weigh less and be simpler to set up (I gig regularly with the LJ, even with drums and horns, although sometimes it's not loud enough). Then, if you needed something more powerful you could add a lightweight powered speaker. On those occasions the total would be maybe 35 lbs or so. But, sometimes you might not need it.

[Spook410]

I bought a Yamaha DZR10 for this purpose. High end until you get into the really high end stuff. To my surprise, I don't care for it. PA speakers can be very durable and powerful but seem dull somehow. Even really good and expensive ones like the DZR series. It's just kind of flat sounding. I mean.. it sounds exactly the same from whisper to wall shaking.. but not the depth I was looking. Like you would find in a studio monitor for instance. Not what I was expecting. Maybe it's something about the throw where it sounds best from 100ft away. Don't know.

What does work for me so far is an ACUS 350 (roughly equivalent to a Schertler Roy). However, ACUS and certainly Schertler is expensive stuff and doesn't offer the sheer power level of a PA speaker. (350W seems like it would be enough but it's often not so I use satellite speakers with a line out). Would not work for bass.

Since I play saxophone, acoustic guitar, and support a vocalist with the rig I do appreciate the flexibility. And digital based amps are just fun with all the options. But I haven't found a solid FRFR solution that is a good value.

[Cunamara]

I have used a SansAmp Para Driver DI into powered speakers and also into the PA, running on phantom power in some cases so no wall wart needed then. Works pretty well, no reverb, very dry. Takes pedals OK (but I only tried reverb). Lots of EQ available. Not *exactly* a guitar amp sound but once the band starts playing, that's not noticeable.

I also used a Zoom MS100 into powered speaker (Alto TS110a) with good results; I don't remember ever running that directly to the PA, but I might have. This is a multi-effect pedal that can provide amp simulation, speaker simulation, reverb and other effects. The pedal itself is kind of fiddly since there's no computer interface and you have to do everything with three knobs and a selector button. Once you get the hang of it though, it's pretty easy to set things up. The HX Stomp mentioned upthread would probably be easier for doing set up and probably offers more control, as well.

[jzucker]

My thoughts. Your milage may vary.

FRFR is the "emperor's new clothes" . Once i switched my modeler to a pair of real guitar cabs, NOBODY can tell I'm using a modeler. Prior to that, it just sounded thin, pinched and artificial. I'd consider a pair of alto ts408 type speakers for convenience but *NOTHING* beats a real guitar cab. The appeal of being able to use guitar cab IRs and be able to switch between a 4x12 cab and a 1x12 vox cab is a myth IMO...

I should also mention that if you are using stereo reverb, chorus , delay - you might enjoy the spread of using a pair of powered cabs positioned to take advantage of that. I do like the sound of that but overall, the sound of FRFRs is extremely unappealing to me in a live situation or even for practicing.

[jorgemg1984]

Jack, I agree with you in general . for some reason I find my Mambo cabs similar to a guitar cab. FRFR works better in a big venue where you hear it off axis.

It would be great if someone released a powered guitar cab for modelers, with a regular guitar speaker. I think Tech 21 had that with their Power Engine series.

[jzucker]

Jack, I agree with you in general . for some reason I find my Mambo cabs similar to a guitar cab. FRFR works better in a big venue where you hear it off axis.

It would be great if someone released a powered guitar cab for modelers, with a regular guitar speaker. I think Tech 21 had that with their Power Engine series.

I haven't kept up but didn't line 6 have a couple cabs like that? I happen to like open back cabs and I've found that there is no IR that captures the sound of an open back cab for practicing or live usage.

I will say that IRs sound great for recording. This is an EV12L in an open back cab I believe. (IR, not real cab)

However, this same IR sounds weak in the room with me going through FRFR speakers. I now use a pair of mojotone 1x12 cabs with DVMark pearl speakers without the IR and it sounds much better in the room.

[jorgemg1984]

I haven't kept up but didn't line 6 have a couple cabs like that? I happen to like open back cabs and I've found that there is no IR that captures the sound of an open back cab for practicing or live usage.

I will say that IRs sound great for recording. This is an EV12L in an open back cab I believe. (IR, not real cab)

However, this same IR sounds weak in the room with me going through FRFR speakers. I now use a pair of mojotone 1x12 cabs with DVMark pearl speakers without the IR and it sounds much better in the room.

Yeah, that's the main complain about modelers - IRs are great for recording but not great for "in the room" sound, live or at home. I get by easily with them, but a lot of people don't.

That clip sounds good, always loved EVs - until I had to carry one.

AFAIK Line 6 does them for use with IRs, not it regular guitar speakers. It would be nice to avoid using a power amp between the modeler and the cab.

[NSJ]

Jack, I agree with you in general . for some reason I find my Mambo cabs similar to a guitar cab. FRFR works better in a big venue where you hear it off axis.

It would be great if someone released a powered guitar cab for modelers, with a regular guitar speaker. I think Tech 21 had that with their Power Engine series.

Friedman released one that was heavy, but way better than the Alto. I presume it was a guitar specific colored speaker. I had one, sold it, even though it was good. There was a point when I had a Kemper-an Axe Fx2 and Axe Fx3. Ridiculous to have all three. Sold it all , but still a Kemper.

I thin the Fender Princeton Tone Master is pretty good, it has a guitar specific cab, a modeling amp that does one thing instead of 10,000. Rodney Jones really likes his Fender Tone Master Princeton Reverb. To me, that’s about as good of an endorsement as you can get.

[jorgemg1984]

Friedman released one that was heavy, but way better than the Alto. I presume it was a guitar specific colored speaker. I had one, sold it, even though it was good. There was a point when I had a Kemper-an Axe Fx2 and Axe Fx3. Ridiculous to have all three. Sold it all , but still a Kemper.

I thin the Fender Princeton Tone Master is pretty good, it has a guitar specific cab, a modeling amp that does one thing instead of 10,000. Rodney Jones really likes his Fender Tone Master Princeton Reverb. To me, that’s about as good of an endorsement as you can get.

If I'm not mistaken the Friedman are FRFR cabs, they just look like guitar cabs (and sound, from everything I read).

TBH, FRFR was bad already before modelers. They're big, heavy, expensive, done with very cheap components (terrible tweeter hiss, etc). I had two back in the day, from Alto or something like that, and never enjoyed them (and in this era it was for acoustic guitars and voices).

When I got the Mambo, I was finally happy with FRFR (and I imagine the same goes for Friedman, Line6 or Raezer's Edge, they all have "guitar" FRFR). I would still like to see an open back 2x12 with a Jensen type speaker (or Celestion for rockers, or whatever handles this power rating) and included 150w / 200w of Class D power amp, with two line level jack inputs for stereo. I think the modelling crowd would love this.

[jzucker]

If I'm not mistaken the Friedman are FRFR cabs, they just look like guitar cabs (and sound, from everything I read).

TBH, FRFR was bad already before modelers. They're big, heavy, expensive, done with very cheap components (terrible tweeter hiss, etc). I had two back in the day, from Alto or something like that, and never enjoyed them (and in this era it was for acoustic guitars and voices).

When I got the Mambo, I was finally happy with FRFR (and I imagine the same goes for Friedman, Line6 or Raezer's Edge, they all have "guitar" FRFR). I would still like to see an open back 2x12 with a Jensen type speaker (or Celestion for rockers, or whatever handles this power rating) and included 150w / 200w of Class D power amp, with two line level jack inputs for stereo. I think the modelling crowd would love this.

My opinion again, not trying to say i'm right and others are wrong but...

A guitar speaker tops out around 5-6k. Even the ev which has more high freq than most tops out at around 7k. The idea that you *NEED* an FRFR is just salesmanship IMO. What you really need is not full range full response, you need limited-range-flat response. The problem with a tweeter is that it's very directional. Most of the cross overs in those FRFR cabs are way too low and your treble frequencies come out of a transistor radio sized tweeter. I remember owning one of the coda amps and the crossover was something like 1k so even before modelers, it just didn't sound "right" to me, particularly if you use overdrive.

IMO, Most of the designers of those systems are sound reinforcement guys who "measure" sound instead of listening to it.

[Gitterbug]

Jensen's stellar N12D speaker is a semi FRFR in that its response curve isn't quite linear. However, it extends beyond 10 kHz. Jack Z makes the valid point that real guitar speakers don't go above 6 kHz or so. To the extent modeling amps don't produce anything above (and they shouldn't), there's no problem. To stay away from excessive fret noise etc, look into bass speakers. Some are quite linear to their max limit. Celestion's BN12-300S reaches 4 kHz and above. Jack Z may not like it, but many other people do.

[Spook410]

- I do hear a difference when I switch between a 1X12, 1X15, and 2X10 IR. Not drastic though. More of a tweak. Not like the difference in real speakers.

- I wish I understood why a good PA speaker doesn't sound as good as it should. I mean.. theoretically...

- If I didn't need amplification for things other than guitar, I would be perfectly happy going with a combo.

[jorgemg1984]

My opinion again, not trying to say i'm right and others are wrong but...

A guitar speaker tops out around 5-6k. Even the ev which has more high freq than most tops out at around 7k. The idea that you *NEED* an FRFR is just salesmanship IMO. What you really need is not full range full response, you need limited-range-flat response. The problem with a tweeter is that it's very directional. Most of the cross overs in those FRFR cabs are way too low and your treble frequencies come out of a transistor radio sized tweeter. I remember owning one of the coda amps and the crossover was something like 1k so even before modelers, it just didn't sound "right" to me, particularly if you use overdrive.

IMO, Most of the designers of those systems are sound reinforcement guys who "measure" sound instead of listening to it.

Agreed!

[jorgemg1984]

Jensen's stellar N12D speaker is a semi FRFR in that its response curve isn't quite linear. However, it extends beyond 10 kHz. Jack Z makes the valid point that real guitar speakers don't go above 6 kHz or so. To the extent modeling amps don't produce anything above (and they shouldn't), there's no problem. To stay away from excessive fret noise etc, look into bass speakers. Some are quite linear to their max limit. Celestion's BN12-300S reaches 4 kHz and above. Jack Z may not like it, but many other people do.

Yeah, that's another option - a "flat" speaker but no tweeter. Anyway I think it's possible to do a god tweeter design, it just takes more knowledge than the average guitar industry guy has, I guess. My Mambo cabs have a coaxial tweeter, maybe that helps!

Have you tried modellers with your desgins?

[jzucker]

Alas, modelers are capable of putting out frequencies up and beyond 20k. One of the recommendations for modelers sounding more realistic is to put a low pass filter at the IR or cab to filter anything above 6k

Jensen's stellar N12D speaker is a semi FRFR in that its response curve isn't quite linear. However, it extends beyond 10 kHz. Jack Z makes the valid point that real guitar speakers don't go above 6 kHz or so. To the extent modeling amps don't produce anything above (and they shouldn't), there's no problem. To stay away from excessive fret noise etc, look into bass speakers. Some are quite linear to their max limit. Celestion's BN12-300S reaches 4 kHz and above. Jack Z may not like it, but many other people do.

[ccroft]

I'm not into modellers, but I see reference here to things like I'm using now. In the last few months I've been digging my ToneBlock 202 in FRFR voicing, with it's 200W Class D. And it's going thru the Celestian BN12-300S in a semi open-back cab. And I did the capacitor hack, which I think might be something like the low pass speaker Jack speaks of.

Just interesting coincidence. Still haven't used it in an ensemble, but it sounds great in the basement.

[Silentwiz]

Well, I monkeyed around with this subject for a while -- and I seem to be all set for guitar using:

- tele or PRS w/ humbucking pickups > Quilter US Superblock > XLR out into > QSC k8.2 [LIVE setting]

At home, this setup works also for

- Ibanez Bass with active pickups > QSC k8.2 [BASS AMP setting]

that said, I have not tried to play bass at "jazz drummer" levels with this setup and would probably be more inclined to bring my ancient Carvin MB10 combo.

Anyway, my kid may pick up jazz piano and I'm just excited to play "the backup" soon!

[Gitterbug]

Yeah, that's another option - a "flat" speaker but no tweeter. Anyway I think it's possible to do a god tweeter design, it just takes more knowledge than the average guitar industry guy has, I guess. My Mambo cabs have a coaxial tweeter, maybe that helps!

Have you tried modellers with your desgins?

Oops, I guess that question was addressed to me. Personally, not. There are some modeling/IR guys using my Metro 6.5FR as a personal monitor and guitar feedback inducer while hooked to PA. My son has done some testing with a Kemper owner and is currently on the lookout for something to boost our test equipment arsenal. Off the hip, I'd say that an open-back Toob 12J with a 100W Jensen Tornado is so articulate and uncolored that it should be a good match to modelers. Acoustic guitars sound great through a Toob 12R, which is mid-range scooped. Here, the wobbly reverb of DV Mark amps is a benefit, adding some chorus to the sound. I stay away from tweeters not only due to design issues and added complexity. Speakers do extend below and above their "usable range", with varying degrees of decline in the response curve, so the harmonics are present in a natural way.

[vintagelove]

+1 on just using a regular speaker.

[Woody Sound]

If you are looking for a light-weight full range sound, instead of all those devices and connections, how about a light-weight full-range acoustic amp?

Just one example:

Acoustic Array Mini - Genzler Amplification