Fender or Quilter

[Fear the Reaper]

Your missing the point that the amp gives you varing power selections that can be selected based on need. This is something that the OP may appreciate and utilize. The back panel reads "Output Power" with the dial having 6 indicating selections;
"0.2w, 0.5w, 1w, 5w, 12w and 22w full"

[Fear the Reaper]

The point or message is that the amp design gives you varing power selections that can be based on need. This is something that the OP may appreciate and utilize based on their discussion. The back panel reads "Output Power" with the dial having 6 indicating selections;
"0.2w, 0.5w, 1w, 5w, 12w and 22w full"
I utilized and found it extremely helpful while owning the amp myself.

I could be wrong, but I don't think Fender uses a traditional output attenuator to achieve variable output power. I'm pretty sure that the class D amp modules in the Tonemasters are all the same 200 watt ICE board, regardless of rated output power. So they clearly adjust the output power internally, with some combination of simple signal attenuation before it hits the power amp board and complex modeling of the signal to give it the sound of tube breakup. Looking inside them, there's no attenuator visible inside the chassis. It'd be hard to overlook - it'd have to be a sizable chunk of heat dissipating substance and surface area to cut a 200 watt signal to 1 watt.

Here's a functional description of what's inside them all:

"The Tone Masters have 4 boards. One is the board for the front controls. One is the motherboard (for the processor). One is the analogue board (attenuator, IR). One for the ICE Power amp. We hear a lot about the extreme processing/software, but not much on the analogue board (outside of the attenuation and IRs). A lot of work went into matching the analogue board to the real tube amp. This is the "secret sauce" so to speak (along with the software and processing). The signal hits the analogue board duplicating the analogue input characteristics, goes to the processor (modeled preamp, power amp and transformers), then it goes to the analogue board to duplicate the analogue output characteristics. There is also a lot going on with the attenuation since there are 6 different leads going to the ICE Power amp. After this on to the ICE Power amp for the speakers which are normal guitar speakers. This amp is not your typical SS amp and/or modeling amp. Too many people dismiss it as such. This amp is really a major game changer."

I strongly suspect that they achieve variable power output by varying the signal strength from the analog board to the power module, right where you'd find a master volume pot in a traditional circuit. They must use modeling to adjust harmonic distortion and other parameters in the signal as you dial the power down. This would give a realistic tube breakup sound when and how you'd get it with a true attenuator. With all that high tech inside, they don't need a power soaking attenuator to get what they want. And it sure would be a step backward for weight, energy efficiency, and claims of cutting edge tech.

[Helliger]

I wouldn't use the line out for recording as a criteria. For recording an amp without micing I think using a reactive load will be better than any line out by far. You'll get the full power section and feel of the amp and you can use it for the other amps you already have. I use a Suhr reactive load but there's a lot on the market now.

I think you said you already have a Princeton clone. Unless it's not a very good one I'd go for the Deluxe reverb although might be a bit loud for quieter gigs but it sounds like you have lower wattage amps already.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Your missing the point that the amp gives you varing power selections that can be selected based on need. This is something that the OP may appreciate and utilize. The back panel reads "Output Power" with the dial having 6 indicating selections;
"0.2w, 0.5w, 1w, 5w, 12w and 22w full"

I'm not missing any point. I'm making a highly educated guess that the way they achieve variable output power is most probably not with an onboard power attenuator (as stated in a prior post and commonly believed). An attenuator is simply a resistive (or, for better ones, reactive) load into which an amp is run at high output power in order to get it to distort. Most of the output signal is dissipated by an attenuator as heat, leaving only a little bit of energy to be transduced into sound. It can be as simple as a wire wound resistor on a heat sink or as complex as the $550 Rivera Rock Crusher or the Mesa Booige Powerhouse for the same price.



From reports of those who have opened them up, the Tonemaster Twin and the Tonemaster Deluxe both use the same 200W ICE power amp stage. The TMTR is rated by Fender at 200W into 4 ohms and is said by them to simulate "85W Tube Amp Performance". The TMDR is rated by Fender at 100W into 8 ohms but is said by them to simulate "22W Tube Amp Performance". It's the exact same power amplifier section - the different output powers are probably set by the drive voltage to the power amp board, not by overdriving it and dissipating most as heat in a true attenuator. So the power level switch is probably a stepped voltage control between the analog board and the power module. The sonic behavior at lower output levels (i.e. how it breaks up) is determined by the simulation parameters of the amp, not by grossly overdriving it. If so, it must model the overdriven sound based on the voltage setting.

It's highly unlikely that the power amps are being driven to full output and the level control is apportioning that power between a dummy load and the speaker(s). The level control is clearly not a 200 watt pot. Fender has never publicly described how they do it, so it remains speculation until proven. I could be wrong, but many others on TGP and similar websites seem to agree with me. It's not a big deal, but it's misinformation to state that the Tonemasters set the variable output level with a traditional "power soak" attenuator.

[jads57]

I find it funny how people can’t find a great Clean Fender type of tone out of their Quilters. Dial the the Gain or Volume to at least half adjust the Master Volume and scoop the mids.

Ive been using older Quilter Aviator combos 1x8”,1x12” and and a TB202 with a 2x12” open back cab for bigger venues. Best Consistent Clean tone Ive ever had in my 45 years of owning way too many amps. And that includes Mesa Boogies, Fenders, Hiwatt, Vox, Marshall, Dumble, etc……..

[mheton]

So you got me interested in Quilter Amps...

My question now is, what kind of cabs are you using?
I am interested in a 1x12. Can I get decent results with a Greenback Speaker?
What are you using?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

So you got me interested in Quilter Amps...

My question now is, what kind of cabs are you using?
I am interested in a 1x12. Can I get decent results with a Greenback Speaker?
What are you using?

Toob, baby! I use my Superblock US through a 6.5” Metro for small gigs and a 10” for bigger ones. I also love it through my 10” Raezer’s Edge that now carries a Jet neo.

I think your choice of speaker depends on your music. For straight ahead jazz, a G12M in an open back cab is a good match. I also liked the warm tone I got from my SB through a friend’s Cannabis Rex in an open cab. But I’m very happy with neo after getting my first one about 4 years ago (a RevSound RS8) and then the Jet. I sold all but 1 of my 12” cabs over the last few years, including the Boogie Thiele cab with EVM that I used for decades.

[Fear the Reaper]

IMHO Your missing the point in context of what the OP was asking about and going off on some self filling tangent that does apply to their concern. Your more conerned about semantics and references to past technology rather address the actual functions for the current Fender Tonemaster Deluxe and how it applies for the OP.

I'm not missing any point. I'm making a highly educated guess that the way they achieve variable output power is most probably not with an onboard power attenuator (as stated in a prior post and commonly believed). An attenuator is simply a resistive (or, for better ones, reactive) load into which an amp is run at high output power in order to get it to distort. Most of the output signal is dissipated by an attenuator as heat, leaving only a little bit of energy to be transduced into sound. It can be as simple as a wire wound resistor on a heat sink or as complex as the $550 Rivera Rock Crusher or the Mesa Booige Powerhouse for the same price.



From reports of those who have opened them up, the Tonemaster Twin and the Tonemaster Deluxe both use the same 200W ICE power amp stage. The TMTR is rated by Fender at 200W into 4 ohms and is said by them to simulate "85W Tube Amp Performance". The TMDR is rated by Fender at 100W into 8 ohms but is said by them to simulate "22W Tube Amp Performance". It's the exact same power amplifier section - the different output powers are probably set by the drive voltage to the power amp board, not by overdriving it and dissipating most as heat in a true attenuator. So the power level switch is probably a stepped voltage control between the analog board and the power module. The sonic behavior at lower output levels (i.e. how it breaks up) is determined by the simulation parameters of the amp, not by grossly overdriving it. If so, it must model the overdriven sound based on the voltage setting.

It's highly unlikely that the power amps are being driven to full output and the level control is apportioning that power between a dummy load and the speaker(s). The level control is clearly not a 200 watt pot. Fender has never publicly described how they do it, so it remains speculation until proven. I could be wrong, but many others on TGP and similar websites seem to agree with me. It's not a big deal, but it's misinformation to state that the Tonemasters set the variable output level with a traditional "power soak" attenuator.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

IMHO Your missing the point in context of what the OP was asking about and going off on some self filling tangent that does apply to their concern. Your more conerned about semantics and references to past technology rather address the actual functions for the current Fender Tonemaster Deluxe and how it applies for the OP.

Thanks for your input. I’ll certainly consider it before posting anything again.

[mheton]

Toob, baby! I use my Superblock US through a 6.5” Metro for small gigs and a 10” for bigger ones. I also love it through my 10” Raezer’s Edge that now carries a Jet neo.

.

Thx, never heard of TOOB before. Looks a bit funny and it's hard to believe that this combo gives some great tones, but it might be the most portable solution I ever saw. Need to check this out.

Do you use the cab sim or the FRFR setting with your TOOB?

I love to play jazz and blues with my Suhr Hombre a Frender Brownface clone, but I am looking for an ultra portable solution.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Thx, never heard of TOOB before. Looks a bit funny and it's hard to believe that this combo gives some great tones, but it might be the most portable solution I ever saw. Need to check this out.

Do you use the cab sim or the FRFR setting with your TOOB?

I love to play jazz and blues with my Suhr Hombre a Frender Brownface clone, but I am looking for an ultra portable solution.

There's nothing more portable than a Toob. Each one, regardless of size, is a tough, featherweight enclosure. I've used my Quilter Superblock US through my 10" Toob (unmic'ed, no less) for loud blues gigs on which I'm playing guitar and keyboard (via Roland synthesizer) simultaneously. They may look like cheap chunks of plastic conduit, but there's both a lot of engineering and a lot of stuff in each one. The drivers are top notch and the enclosures are the products of untold hours of designing, experimenting, testing, and refining. They're hand built to a high standard by our friend and fellow player Gitterbug, who's turned out about 600 to date. These are serious gear for serious musicians, and the prices are very fair.

I usually use the "normal" cab sim setting and either the 65 or the 57 voicing, depending on the gig and which guitar I use. Here's a 40 second sample of what my SBUS on (57 / normal) sounds like through my Toob Metro BG+ (6.5") mic'ed from a few inches away with my TASCAM DR-40 recorder. I made this while experimenting with tone cap values - thus the track title. This track was recorded with a 0.047uF tone cap in the circuit. The guitar is my Ibanez AF207. The enclosure is so well designed and built that even the little 6.5 really pumps out the 7th string all the way down to the low A:



And here's a funkier, bluesier track made with the same amp / speaker (which lives on my recording desk) and my 7 string Tele (with Lace Alumitones). This was a solo fingerstyle track I made for the Songs forum thread on The Chicken.



I don't have any recordings of it, but the Quilters get a nice dirt range from gentle breakup to annoyingly buzzy by balancing Gain and Volume settings. The Limiter knob adds a bit of "sag", too.

And here's a solo track from my Eastman 810CE7 through the SB and my 10" Toob:

[SandChannel]

The SuperBlock US and Toob Metro are a perfect pairing and sound brilliant. I would def consider looking into them.

[mheton]

@nevershouldhavesoldit
Woah, that's a comprehensive explanation. Thank you for taking the time to write and post your links.
I think that's exactly what I've been looking for for a long time. Thanks man.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

@nevershouldhavesoldit
Woah, that's a comprehensive explanation. Thank you for taking the time to write and post your links.
I think that's exactly what I've been looking for for a long time. Thanks man.

It's my pleasure. I've been searching for the "right" gear for all of the 67 years I've been playing the guitar. I've dragged Twins, Boogies, B15Ns, 2x12 Bassmen, 4x12 Magnatones, and a whole lot more iron around for decades while searching for great stuff I could carry and afford and from which I could get the sounds I wanted and needed. The availability of small, powerful, reliable, inexpensive amplification that sounds great has been a godsend for me and everybody else like me (of whom there are a lot).

My go-to rigs are now my Quilter+Toobs, my Blu 6, and my DV Mark EG250+Raezer's Edge 10. My RevSound RS8 is a bass cab with neo speaker that has more bottom than the Toobs and is half the weight of the RE (11 pounds). It may all be geezer gear to the young 'uns, but this is world class stuff. Be grateful you live in the 21st century and enjoy everything it has to offer!

[mheton]

Well I don't mind being a punk, a geezer, an old white man or what not. I play what I like and use what serves my needs. ...and from time to time I still have a habit of doing boomer bends.

Again, great advice

[orri]

Do you use the cab sim or the FRFR setting with your TOOB?

The cab sim setting affects the line out and the headphone output. It's intended to simulate a miced speaker cab when you're playing with headphones, PA, computer direct in, etc.

The cab sim setting does not affect the signal that comes out of the speaker output, which is the output you connect speaker cabinets to.
If you're using a speaker cab, there is no need to simulate a speaker cab, because you're using a real one, if that makes sense.

(there are also active FR speaker cab products on the market that have built in amps and are designed for being used with modellers which model (among other things) a speaker cab. But a Quilter SB functions as a "normal" guitar amp if you use the speaker output, and a Toob functions as a "normal" speaker cab ).

[mheton]

The cab sim setting affects the line out and the headphone output. It's intended to simulate a miced speaker cab when you're playing with headphones, PA, computer direct in, etc.

The cab sim setting does not affect the signal that comes out of the speaker output, which is the output you connect speaker cabinets to.
If you're using a speaker cab, there is no need to simulate a speaker cab, because you're using a real one, if that makes sense.
.

okay, ... this makes sense

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The cab sim setting does not affect the signal that comes out of the speaker output, which is the output you connect speaker cabinets to.

Thanks for adding that, Orri ! I overlooked it in my response. The reason I make sure to keep that switch in the "normal" position is that I accidentally had it in FRFR while recording through the DI out. I couldn't understand why my guitar sounded too thin in the recording until I used the amp on a gig a few days later and saw that it was set to FRFR. So I got in the habit of checking those little switches every time I use the amp.

The FRFR setting is easily misunderstood. Many think that its purpose is to set the line out for use with a FRFR power amp and cabinet regardless of other factors. But it's actually the setting to use if an external modeler is in the chain or if heavy DSP is applied to the recording or used in the sound reinforcement system being fed. If the DI out is driving a sound reinforcement system directly, the "normal" setting gives the same sound at the speakers as mic'ing the virtual speaker / cabinet being modeled by the SB (which they describe as a "normal 12" speaker and cabinet").

[Caillou]

I’m not looking for an amp anymore. I’m really happy with my DV Mark Little Jazz
I did a lot of recording tests recently, with a lot of mics and combinations. Here is the best configuration I’ve found for recording my G&L Telecaster : the line out of the Little Jazz + a mic (Rode NT5) quite close to the strings to capture the attack of the notes ang gives some air to the sound
Here is an example
Dropbox - 230417 - Bewitched (G&L).mp3 - Simplify your life
The only issue in this recording is the little noises of my old chair, just need to sit somewhere else when I play

[ccroft]

I've had a ToneBlock 202 in a BlockDock 12 for several years. I love it. Lately I've been enjoying the FRFR voicing. Just the amp in the room.

It's no tiny SuperBlock and Toob set-up, but as an ex Boogie 100 watt guy it feels like it to me!

[jumpnblues]

TM Fenders vs Quilters = apples and oranges. Totally different amps. I play mostly straight ahead jazz, chord melody jazz, and jazz blues. I look for one great tone, not multiple tones. I'm not interested in multiple tones. For me and my preference, I couldn't care less if I have 15 tones or more. If I could only have one amp it would be the TMDR that I own, hands down. It checks all the boxes...for me, and has for the last 2 years. I love it. Outstanding tone to my ears. Does that make my amp more correct than any other amp? Of course not. It's about preferences. Not correctness. If you have a Quilter (or any other amp) and it checks all the boxes for you...great! My 2 cents.

[jads57]

If the amp allows you to get Your Tone easily that’s all that really matters! Hopefully it’s consistent from gig to gig and light weight as well.
Im really happy with Quilters cause they check all the boxes for me. I’m also sure I could be happy with the Fender ToneMaster offerings if I owned those as well!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

TM Fenders vs Quilters = apples and oranges.

That cliché is one of my pet peeves. Apples and oranges are both fruit, so why can't you compare them? They have many characteristics in common - they're sources of nutrition and energy, they can be used as hand weapons, they grow on trees, they bring pleasure to those who like them, they can both made into alcoholic beverages, they both have outer skins, they both have seeds, they both make great juice, they bulge visibly when carried in a pocket, etc etc. Yet they differ in taste, color, texture, vitamin and sugar content, aroma, optimal climate for growing, proper care while growing, harvesting methods etc etc.

Amplifiers are no different. Despite differences, they're devices that are comparable in many areas of commonality. Factors that affect their suitability for a given player include versatility and the uses(s), style(s), setting(s) etc in which they'll be played. Physical form is another appropriate area of comparison. So is the ease and sensitivity with which they can be adjusted to produce the sound(s) most pleasing or necessary for the user. Then there are basics like cost, availability, reliability, serviceability, size, weight, etc.

Some of us just like apples more than oranges. Some love both, and some prefer pears. But this is the nature of comparison. The fact that there are many posts here and elsewhere about the dilemma of choosing between a TM and a Quilter says that they're viable alternatives for many players. And even if you truly want only a single sound for all your playing, it's quite possible that a Quilter or a TM will give you just a bit more of it than the other. You don't know if you haven't tried. I played a Boogie Mk 1 with an EVM in it for decades. I never used most of the controls and settings because I didn't want or need what they did. But that little sucker put out a gorgeous jazzy tone from my guitars, and I could add a little hair to it for blues. It was loud enough for any gig, but it sounded great at a whisper too. I've never found another amp that sounded better to me or did more for me, and it wasn't for lack of trying. A 65 pound 12" combo is a pain to drag around - and as I recall, it originally cost me a grand. I bought a lot of "lesser" amps over the year trying to shed a few pounds and make a few dollars. All I got to show for the effort was a lot of experience with many amps and a slightly diminishing gear account until I sold the Boogie and made back most of my losses.

I'm now happy with a Blu 6 and a Superblock + Toobs. I also have an original RE 10 with a neo driver in it and a DV Mark EG250 head to drive it. They're all different, but they all give me pretty much the same jazz tone. They're like an apple, an orange, and a watermelon - they're all different, they all please me, they're all wonderful, and I can even combine them into a delicious sonic fruit salad! If a Tone Block 202 pops up at a decent price, I may buy it just to see what the fuss is all about. I've already played through ToneMasters large and small. and I love them too - I just don't want a cab that big. OK - maybe I'd buy a well priced used TM too, just to see how it works out for me.

[Spook410]

Thanks for your input. I’ll certainly consider it before posting anything again.

OK.. funny. Gotta love a dry sense of humor.

[Spook410]

Gigging, recording, and playing at home do have somewhat different requirements even before you consider basics like cost and form factor. It's good to have a clear idea what you're looking for and why. And if you can only own one or two because of your economic situation, space constraints, or bad attitude towards owning stuff then I'm thinking either a Quilter combo or Fender TM will work just fine. Assuming you want a nice blackface tone to start with.