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I have both an ES 175 and a Byrdland. Yes, they sound very different within the scope of archtops. ES 175 has a drier, simpler tone. Byrdland is clearer but very smooth (not harsh). Byrdland has more acoustic undertones and is more dynamic. Funny enough, I still prefer my ES 175 most times.
I've also had Eastman's. They also sound quite different. So it's not just a matter of carved top with set humbucker. I suspect some of the Japanese lawsuit spruce top archtops may come close even though they are not carved.
Regarding scale length, I have no problem with switching between Fender, Gibson and Byrdland scale lengths. Sometimes switching between Fender and Byrdland can feel awkward for a short period of time but after that the scale length factor disappears as a source of discomfort. The Byrdland scale feels like I get super powers sometimes.
So, I wouldn't rule out a Byrdland if you only had a very limited experience with Byrdland scale length guitars.
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09-16-2022 06:53 AM
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Hi, O,
You have been a gentleman in your responses to my posts. And, I take your question very seriously. However, you might be asking a question that is impossible to get a real answer based on the individual player, the amplifier settings, and the particular sound engineer and recording as has been shown by other posters. So, I leave with this one question to ponder: Are there any sound differences on a single Steinway Grand piano when played by Rubenstein, Kempff, or Horowitz?
Marinero
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This, pretty much! The rest is just player touch and taste.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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A noted music critic and reviewer allegedly once said that when Rubinstein hits middle C, it sounds better than when anyone else hits middle C Originally Posted by Marinero
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Don't overlook the important contribution of scale length to tone. The overtone content of the longer vibrating string is always going to be different, with the shorter string providing stronger fundamental and the longer string providing stronger overtones. You can approximate using EQ adjustments on the guitar and the amp, but a Byrdland is going to sound like a Byrdland due to the very short scale length and nothing with a longer scale length is going to sound exactly like that.
It depends on what your ears like, of course; I think Anthony Wilson on that guitar has one of the best jazz tones I have ever heard. He sounds really good on every other guitar he plays, but that one really grabs me. Whenever I hear him, it makes me obsess for a little bit about getting one of those but they are a bit rare and much too expensive for my budget. There is another Gibson archtop model with the same scale length, IIRC; is it the ES-350T?
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I took this as a rethorical question. Different touch — different sound naturally. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
A noted music critic and reviewer allegedly once said that when Rubinstein hits middle C, it sounds better than when anyone else hits middle C
But there is more to this. I had a conversation once with a piano tuner who had been working for a friend of mine (this is a recording on a Yamaha D Grand — a Steinway copy — that belongs to Bavarian Public Radio in Munich, D is the largest size of a grand piano).
The tuner told me that a good pianist would test the piano through all octaves and he would (besides tuning of course) according to the wishes of the piano player work on the felts of the hammers with different techniques to achieve a fully balanced sound.
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For the side thread that we have going on in here, thanks for your input. It would be interesting to have a discussion on that and I still ask you to please start a thread to discuss it! Would love to reply to your comments in a dedicated discussion. I think it's still too nuanced to get into in this thread, which is pretty direct and tactical.
For those of you who have made concrete suggestions, thanks so much. I guess my initial intuition was right. For a general ballpark, we're talking about carved spruce top Gibson with a set humbucker into a blackface amp. It's interesting how close that Sadowsky Jim Hall gets to this sound. I've never played one, but my understanding is that the laminate top of those is much more resonant than the typical ES 175, which I think explains the depth/texture of the electric sound. I found an interview with Sam where he said he replaced the original Sadowsky pickup with a Fralin Pure PAF. I guess that's why it sounds so different from other Sadowsky Jim Hall clips I've heard and more like a Gibson.
I also definitely appreciate the nuance of high quality recording/mixing/producing. It makes all the difference. Especially in the Krall clips, you can tell how much work went into making Anthony's sound really pop in the mix during his solos.
For people with more experience with modern Gibson archtops: anybody have notes to share comparing the L5 CES, L5 Wes, Le Grand, and L5 CT (all variants)? I know the Le Grand has a floating pickup, but curious if it's anywhere in the ballpark of this sound. My understanding is that modern Gibsons are built heavier, so I could see a floater on a heavy top responding in a similar way to a set pickup. Oh and I have plenty of experience with the Byrdland scale to know that it's not really for me. I buy the idea that it contributes to the tone, for sure, though.
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Very interesting about the Fralin, didn't know that. One thing to take in account is the Jim Hall model, if I remember correctly, uses a custom Di Marzio to simulate the sound of the pickup on his original D'Aquisto. And Jim favoered a more acosutic sound, no doubt. On the other Sadowsky models, I think the stock pickup is a DiMarzio 36th, which is a great pickup, and I believe the delta to the Fralin would be much smaller. All speculations, of course. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Here you can hear Lage Lund using the Sadowsky (I imagine the pickup is stock) with a Music Man amp, which is an hybrid amp designed by Leo Fender. It sounds very different from Sam's sound. Can just a pickup make such a difference? Interesting. In my Guild X-500 I changed the pickup from a Bare Knuckle to a Seymour Duncan, and it certainly made the sound more electric and less acoustic.
Lage Lund: Looking Forward article @ All About Jazz
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With all due respect, I disagree. Obviously we know as others have said that the players hands etc and the recording quality, which is superb, make a difference. But I think in this case it can be clearly stated: this is a classic Gibson arch top tone with a PAF style pickup into a Fender black face amp. We are talking Wes Montgomery 101 here, probably the most imitated and sought after jazz tone ever, it's not that complicated. This is why L5's, even those not from the golden era, still fetch big bucks. Originally Posted by Marinero
It is of course complicated to play that way and get that nice attack he is getting, not many of us can do that, but I think if one were to start with that basic equipment setup, that tone should be reachable. After that, it's all practice.
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Jorge, I agree. Pretty different sound. Lage goes for a totally different ethos. He definitely comes from a different school of playing than the kinds of guitarists that are hooking up with Krall or Ben Paterson.
Bluejay, since you took the bait I'll reply to Marinero's comments with an anecdote.
A good friend of mine used to play in Benny Goodman's band in the 70s-80s and he told me this story a couple of times. Benny was notorious for having high standards and firing people who didn't meet those standards. My friend has phenomenal time feel, pitch, lyricism, and tone. One day, Benny told him he needed to get a new guitar (he played one of those thunky 50s plywood gibsons that some people like). Benny said the guitar needed to be more crisp. He didn't take Benny seriously at first, and then he realized that Benny was starting to ask him to sit out more and was getting weird. Apparently he got to a point where someone else in the band told him Benny was talking to Bucky Pizzarelli about future gigs. He freaked out and got a blonde L7. The L7 is now a signature of his sound, and the ES 150 nearly got him fired. He still has the ES 150, but he acknowledges the obvious differences in what that guitar can do even when played with his very same two hands. He calls the L7 his "good guitar".
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Presuming you don’t want another Gibson equivalent, you should listen to some of the real good Bory’s B120. They are parallel braced like the Byrdland, and have one built in Humbucker. The additional Humbucker, in the Byrdland does impart some additional bottom end, but since Anthony was using the neck pick up only I thought this might be a nice addition to consider.
Enjoy your search - it’s the best part.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I know it sounds crazy, but try a Gibson Tal Farlow, through a Twin Reverb. Break it in. I mean, play spirited rhythm (Nile Rodgers) for a night. The next day, it’s broken in, and sounds just like that.
I think i would like to sound like Anthony Wilson too. But I for one, will need his hands and his ability for that and it will never happen.
Joe D
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It strikes me as very similar to Doug Raney's tone here. You can hear the contrast between him and Jimmy (Doug solos first), who I assume is playing his 175. It's "punchier?"
Unfortunately, this might only muddy the waters, as I've heard some people say it was an L7...others a 350. Or even a 350T.
What it seems to come down to is that this a Gibson sound.
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To me, Doug Raney's guitar in that recording sounds drier than Anthony Wilson's guitar in the Diana Krall recording, which makes me think it's an ES 175, Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Jeff, that's definitely in the ball park! To me it sounds a lot like Pete Bernstein's tone when he played the 175. If I had to guess I would also say it's a 175, as I hear the same "dryness" that Tal_175 called out.
You know what's funny, I always thought I was immune to the humbucker-L5-lust since I am mostly into older stuff. But, man I think you are all pulling me in. Anybody got an L5 CES, Wes, or CT they wanna sell me? Feel free to DM.
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And make it a thinline. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I suppose that suggests:
-long-scale Byrdland or thinline L-5CES / L-5WES or some other similar Gibson, like the cool thinline, double-cutaway L-5, or an L-5CT with set-in pickup, yeah!
-thinline Heritage Golden Eagle w/CES set-up ... like mine.
You should get in touch with Greg De Lorto - I believe he has a blonde Heritage Golden Eagle thinline w/CES set-up, and a few other related guitars, and I think he's somewhere in OC, not far from San Diego.Last edited by Hammertone; 09-19-2022 at 04:03 AM.
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OMP this is too easy. You just go to Joe and buy his Heritage Golden Eagle with the single built in pick up. You will be getting a Wes L5 for way less money and it will do the exact same thing. I mean it will sound exacly like it for all practical purposes. But no, according to the market it will not be a Wes. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Jump now before it is too late!
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...probably focusing on "low end" or "brightness" etc, we never will answer the question. Trying to analize some formal attributes, instead of the feel, so missing the point.
Obviously the instrument matters, but surely the musician does not care if it is a more bright or have a bit more low end, as long as he is satisfied with the expression, he capable to achieve. With other words, not even cares about the difference what you are try to make.
As you wrote correctly the sound comes from the mind, then in lucky case the execution and technique produces something close to that original intention. A bit more brightness or low end does not play the big picture.
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I have a Borys B160, and I'll second that! A bit of a different sound as it's a laminate guitar, but pretty great all the same. Thanks again QAman for helping me with that decision! One of my happier guitar acquisitions. Originally Posted by QAman
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Well, thank you OMP for letting me into your new obsession… he plays incredibly (they all do in that fateful first video) and sounds like a choir of angels.
Good luck in your quest, and let us know how it goes. I come from a similar place and am mighty interested where it may lead you!
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PS: it's a very different style of guitar playing, but I have the impression that Peter Mazza's Super V (17", fully carved, set hum bucker, 25.5" scale) gets a tone that's in the ballpark: articulate but sweet. Of course, a Super V ain't easy to find, and it ain't cheap either!
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I suppose Elvis C. is more like a singer and song writer and not so much a guitarist. Originally Posted by Marinero
I don’t know about his legs, but I like a lot of many of his pop songs. And his album Spike (1989) introduced the Dirty Dozen Brass Band for me and maybe for some thousands more.
He made a song named Stalin Malone and asked DDBB to record it. When he got the tapes he liked ot so much that he didn’t want to sing on it. He put it on the record as sn instrumental version and pressed the lyrics on the sleeve of the album.
DDBB rules!
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