Good Humidifiers?

[Ed Davis]

I haven't been on this chat room for a while but I have a question. Do any of you use humidifiers to protect your guitars. I live in an area that is normally around 45-48% humid but as of lately it has dropped to under 40%. I've gotten the Boveda 49% packs and the Double fabric holders to use in my cases and I have distilled water in plastic containers with wet painters spunges in the room where I keep my guitars. Still 40% humidity right now. Not good enough. :-( I'm thinking a humidifier would help. Am I right? Anyone use one and what brand ???

[JSanta]

I agree that it sounds like you need a humidifier. I won't point you in a specific brand direction, but the one I have was relatively cheap that I got from Lowes years ago. It has a humidistat, and that (IMO) is very important for use to keep instruments safe. I can keep my office/guitar space at 50%-55% in the winter when the forced air furnace is running without issue. This time of the year, I have the opposite problem and occasionally have to run a dehumidifier (part of a stand alone AC in this space) to keep it below 60%.

Amazon has several highly rated devices with the humidistat feature, and depending on your budget, that's where I'd start. The one I currently use is from Air Innovations (https://www.amazon.com/Air-Innovatio...89&sr=1-6&th=1) but mine is black plastic.

[marcwhy]

Check with the builder/luthier people here: isn't 40% "fine" for guitars? Do you really need anything more?

[JSanta]

Check with the builder/luthier people here: isn't 40% "fine" for guitars? Do you really need anything more?

The Taylor guitars website indicates that anything between 40%-60% is acceptable for guitars. I'd still lean towards the middle range if it was something I could control.

[Woody Sound]

If you own your own home and have forced air, I highly recommend an Aprilaire whole house humidifier. Worry free, automatic, adjustable, never have to add water. They have many different models depending on the size of your home. We have a baby grand and violins/cellos upstairs, guitars are downstairs. I have the 600 model, keeps everything between 45-50 in the dry season. Relatively inexpensive (the 600 was around $200) but you need to have your furnace/ac people install it, it's a bit complicated to install because it goes on your furnace/ac blower and taps into your water system.

Besides keeping your instruments healthy, they're great for your respiratory health.

Whole-House Humidifier Solutions for Health and Home Preservation

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I've gotten the Boveda 49% packs and the Double fabric holders to use in my cases and I have distilled water in plastic containers with wet painters spunges in the room where I keep my guitars. Still 40% humidity right now.

That’s how I do it too. I have one pack in an f hole or the sound hole on each hollow body plus a second in each case under the headstock. I keep a Vornado humidifier on the floor next to the piano throughout the heating season. The hollow guitars are in cases under the piano and there’s a good electronic hygrometer on top in plain sight.

I agree with Marcwhy that 40% should be fine. That’s my goal, and it’s worked out well for years. I only had one guitar suffer damage from dryness. I foolishly hung my rosewood & spruce Larrivee parlor on the wall next to our bed. The house had forced air HVAC with an Aprilaire central humidifier, and it was just not up to keeping our 4000 sq ft house at 40% through northeast winters. I was young and dumb, so I had neither a room humidifier nor a humidity meter because I trusted the builder and the Aprilaire ads. I changed the filters at every change of seasons and descaled the entire thing at the same time. They may have gotten better, but we built the house in 1979, and it was simply not effective. I asked about an improved replacement in about 1990 and was told the exact same model was still current.

I did keep one of those sponge-filled hoses inside each case or in the sound hole - but I was afraid of free water inside a guitar, so I probably squeezed 90% of the water out before drying the outside in a towel and putting back in the guitar or case.

It only took a few years for enough shrinkage to develop to loosen the gorgeous wood binding along the back of the lower bout. I sent it back to Larrivee, and they took months to rehydrate it before repairing the damage (at my expense, since it was pure negligence on my part). I learned my lesson and never did that again. As I’d recently switched to 7s, I sold this guitar, along with my other standard 6s, soon after getting it back.

It’s not hard data, but I also have no fret sprout or any other signs of dryness on 5 solid bodies and my National, 4 of which have been with me since I bought them new between 25 and 35+ years ago. The ESP (my first 7 string), the P-bass, and the National have been on the wall for years in the same area as the Vornado humidifier. I started using these (one in the living room music area and one in the bedroom) after the Larrivee trauma.

[skykomishone]

Temperature and relative humidity are inversely related. Warmer air holds more moisture.
Extremes are bad.
Consistency is good.
For me,
30%, not good.
40% is good.
50% would be high.
Defining and creating a space within your home where humidity and temperature can be controllable are ideal.
When a humidifier is required, the volume of space requiring treatment is important. A small and more contained space, if you have it, requires less treatment than a large, drafty one. If you put a humidifier in a large open room it will not make much of a difference. If you put it in a small room, with a door, it might.

I would never put something wet in my guitar case.

I do use several humidifiers.
My current favorite is the Vornado Energy Smart, in a spare bedroom. The others are a Vornado 40 and a large Venta. Both of these are only used during the high heat demand season and are both in storage now, used in larger volume spaces that are difficult to affect satisfactorily.

Hope this helps.

[sbeishline]

I use Boveda system (packs in your case with bluetooth hygrometer to app on your phone), which is super easy and works well.

[John A.]

Temperature and humidity are inversely related. Cooler air holds more moisture.
Extremes are bad.
Consistency is good.
For me,
30%, not good.
40% is good.
50% would be high.
Defining and creating a space within your home where humidity and temperature can be controllable are ideal.
When a humidifier is required, the volume of space requiring treatment is important. A small and more contained space, if you have it, requires less treatment than a large, drafty one. If you put a humidifier in a large open room it will not make much of a difference. If you put it in a small room, with a door, it might.

I would never put something wet in my guitar case.

I do use several humidifiers.
My current favorite is the Vornado Energy Smart, in a spare bedroom. The others are a Vornado 40 and a large Venta. Both of these are only used during the high heat demand season and are both in storage now, used in larger volume spaces that are difficult to affect satisfactorily.

Hope this helps.

I can't speak to the rest of what you say, but warmer air holds more moisture than colder air. That's why home heating systems tend to dry out guitars (and people).

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I can't speak to the rest of what you say, but warmer air holds more moisture than colder air.

You're correct that warmer air can sustain a higher water content by weight, % of molecules, etc than the same amount of air at a lower temp. But air does not "hold" water in any way or amount. Warm air can contain more water molecules than the same amount of cool air (again, by weight, # of molecules etc, but not by volume because raising the temp will either increase the volume or the pressure). This is because of the higher energy level and resultant increased molecular motion of the water particles as temperature increases - the vapor remains in the gaseous state because it has more difficulty condensing into liquid water and falling out of the air. Water does not have to be above its boiling point to exist as vaopr (i.e. to be in its gaseous state). There's always a tiny bit of water vapor in equilibrium with liquid water at the ambient temperatures and pressures in which we live. If this weren't true, there'd be no clouds, not condensation on the outside of your beer mug, and no way for humidity to get from your sponge into your guitar's wood.

There are molecules of many, many substances in our air. When it's warmed, water molecules that are mixed in as vapor with the component molecules of air (oxygen, nitrogen, etc) are also warmed, adding kinetic energy that causes them to move faster. This makes them less able to condense into liquid water and leave the air. So there can be a higher percentage of water molecules in the same amount of air by weight at a higher temperature. This is why water condenses and runs down the inside of your windows when the outside air is very cold and the inside of your house is warm.

But there has to be a source of the additional water - just heating air will not increase its water content in a closed, dry container. Pure air will contain the same amount of water vapor at any temperature - none. Up to 2% or so of the air we breathe is water vapor that enters the atmosphere from oceans, our own exhalation, the small but real water content generated by combustion, etc.

PS: Sky, it's temperature and pressure that are inversely related (per Boyle's Ideal Gas Law)

[John A.]

You're correct that warmer air can sustain a higher water content by weight, % of molecules, etc than the same amount of air at a lower temp. But air does not "hold" water in any way or amount. Warm air can contain more water molecules than the same amount of cool air (again, by weight, # of molecules etc, but not by volume because raising the temp will either increase the volume or the pressure). This is because of the higher energy level and resultant increased molecular motion of the water particles as temperature increases - the vapor remains in the gaseous state because it has more difficulty condensing into liquid water and falling out of the air. Water does not have to be above its boiling point to exist as vaopr (i.e. to be in its gaseous state). There's always a tiny bit of water vapor in equilibrium with liquid water at the ambient temperatures and pressures in which we live. If this weren't true, there'd be no clouds, not condensation on the outside of your beer mug, and no way for humidity to get from your sponge into your guitar's wood.

There are molecules of many, many substances in our air. When it's warmed, water molecules that are mixed in as vapor with the component molecules of air (oxygen, nitrogen, etc) are also warmed, adding kinetic energy that causes them to move faster. This makes them less able to condense into liquid water and leave the air. So there can be a higher percentage of water molecules in the same amount of air by weight at a higher temperature. This is why water condenses and runs down the inside of your windows when the outside air is very cold and the inside of your house is warm.

But there has to be a source of the additional water - just heating air will not increase its water content in a closed, dry container. Pure air will contain the same amount of water vapor at any temperature - none. Up to 2% or so of the air we breathe is water vapor that enters the atmosphere from oceans, our own exhalation, the small but real water content generated by combustion, etc.

PS: Sky, it's temperature and pressure that are inversely related (per Boyle's Ideal Gas Law)

I fail to see a difference between saying warm air "holds" more water and warm air "contains" more water. I could have provided a similarly detailed explanation of relative humidity, distinctions between mass and volume, Boyle's law, etc., but brevity is the soul of wit.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I fail to see a difference between saying warm air "holds" more water and warm air "contains" more water. I could have provided a similarly detailed explanation of relative humidity, distinctions between mass and volume, Boyle's law, etc., but brevity is the soul of wit.

Actually, I said that warm air “can contain” more water, not that it does. The common misconception I was addressing is the idea that if you heat air, it will contain more water. I’ve heard many guitar players say that they keep their homes warmer because warm air holds more water. Without added humidification, this would be worse for a guitar than a cool environment because the warmer dry air is, the more water it will cause to evaporate its way out of the wood, case lining, etc. That’s because of the energy that you’d prefer I not discuss. So I won’t do that again.

Sorry, John - brevity may be the soul of wit, but it can lead to some serious omissions in presentation of facts. I think I’ll stop trying to be too helpful as seems to irritate some, and that’s not my intent. Like I always say, keep your guitar humid and your wit dry

David

PS: see post 13 for an example of the above misconception. "..air will have a HIGHER relative humidity if the air is cooler, and a LOWER relative humidity if the air is warmer". I’m not making this stuff up…….

[skykomishone]

That's right. Thanks guys. I made the correction! Relative humidity, "...so with the same amount of absolute/specific humidity, air, will have a HIGHER relative humidity if the air is cooler, and a LOWER relative humidity if the air is warmer".

Discussion on Humidity

[skykomishone]

It's all good! Science rules!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

It's all good! Science rules!

Having caused expensive damage to one of my favorite instruments and known the pain, I just thought
I’d try to help others avoid doing the same. May you and your guitars stay safe!

[John A.]

Actually, I said that warm air “can contain” more water, not that it does. The common misconception I was addressing is the idea that if you heat air, it will contain more water. I’ve heard many guitar players say that they keep their homes warmer because warm air holds more water. Without added humidification, this would be worse for a guitar than a cool environment because the warmer dry air is, the more water it will cause to evaporate its way out of the wood, case lining, etc. That’s because of the energy that you’d prefer I not discuss. So I won’t do that again.

Sorry, John - brevity may be the soul of wit, but it can lead to some serious omissions in presentation of facts. I think I’ll stop trying to be too helpful as seems to irritate some, and that’s not my intent. Like I always say, keep your guitar humid and your wit dry

David

Not irritated, and not trying to be argumentative. But I am generally pretty careful about how I word things (typos aside), and if you think about it, I think you'll see that my saying warm air "holds" more water (a gallon jug holds more water than a liter bottle, even when neither contains any water at all), coupled with my also saying "that's why home heating systems tend to dry out guitars (and people)" summarizes nearly everything you said. I don't think anyone would take it as advice to turn up the thermostat.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don't think anyone would take at as advice to turn up the thermostat.

You’re blessed with smarter friends and / or more confidence in people than I am

[John A.]

You’re blessed with smarter friends and / or more confidence in people than I am

Possibly the former, definitely not the latter.

[skykomishone]

Having caused expensive damage to one of my favorite instruments and known the pain, I just thought
I’d try to help others avoid doing the same. May you and your guitars stay safe!

You too. I try to help. What's interesting, is that some people get swollen joints when a storm approaches. Maybe they swell up like guitars do! If that happens to you, then you'll know when to check on your guitars. That would be being truly sympathetic to their needs. Hahaha! I do know that if the relative humidity goes from 40 to 50, I need to tune down, and if 40 to 35, up. Not all the guitars are affected the same amount, as they each are made of different woods and thicknesses, different cases, finishes, etc., but I still go through the herd and check each one. I need to stay vigilant! Good excuse to play them all.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You too. I try to help. What's interesting, is that some people get swollen joints when a storm approaches. Maybe they swell up like guitars do! If that happens to you, then you'll know when to check on your guitars. That would be being truly sympathetic to their needs. Hahaha! I do know that if the relative humidity goes from 40 to 50, I need to tune down, and if 40 to 35, up. Not all the guitars are affected the same amount, as they each are made of different woods and thicknesses, different cases, finishes, etc., but I still go through the herd and check each one. I need to stay vigilant! Good excuse to play them all.

So true! For the next few months, I’ll have to retune within 15 minutes of taking out my guitars at the club because there’s an air conditioner blowing right on me from 5’ away. That’s the main reason I use my laminated Ibanez and will only take my Eastman to places that are safe for it. But I even have to retune the Tele when the A/C is on max.

[D'Aquisto Fan]

I use Boveda system (packs in your case with bluetooth hygrometer to app on your phone), which is super easy and works well.

I've been doing the exact same thing for the past 6 months or so and I've been very pleased and reassured.

[Woody Sound]

It's all good! Science rules!

With that said, why does 80o weather air feel hot, but 80o pool water feels cold? Could never figure that one out.

[JohanAbrandt]

With that said, why does 80o weather air feel hot, but 80o pool water feels cold? Could never figure that one out.

Probably because water conducts heat about 20 times better than air

[Bluedawg]

I feel lucky to get my guitar room above 30% this time of year. 40% would be good for me.

I have a cheap humidifier from Target at the moment. I hope to upgrade it before the next round of dry winter weather sets in.

Current humidity is 22% outside and that's with our rainy season approaching in a few weeks.

We had some days under 10% a few weeks ago.

So far, no real problems, but the only high-end flattop I have is a Gibson J-100, which is doing fine ... so far.

For my bigger archtops I've put the Planet Waves humidity packets in the cases to help.

The humidity does help my Heritage Sweet 16 to play better so it is helping.

[Max405]

SNIP
"My current favorite is the Vornado Energy Smart, in a spare bedroom. The others are a Vornado 40 and a large Venta. Both of these are only used during the high heat demand season and are both in storage now, used in larger volume spaces that are difficult to affect satisfactorily.
Hope this helps".

Sky my man,
Like you, I care DEEPLY about keeping my babies moisturized in the winter. I have 2 evaporative humidifiers, the;
AIRCARE Digital Whole-House Console-Style Evaporative Humidifier (Copper Night) and the
AIRCARE Space-Saver Evaporative Whole House Humidifier (2,300 sq ft)

Ive been using them for a few years now. Only one at a time. But last year I was put off by how quickly mold tends to "Bloom" in the wicks. Not to mention the filters are not cheap at about $25/mnth. This has led me to looking into the Venta Airwasher. You mentioned you have one. I love the concept. Can you tell me (us) about it? I know they are expensive ($400-500 range). I know they dont use wicks. But they do use an antibacterial type of solution, which is not cheap... And they require weekly maintenance and daily refilling, (which I am cool with). But do they work? Do they provide the right environment for my babies?
One other thing to note, I have really old single pane windows in this house and most of the moisture generated by my AIRCARE units end up as condensation on my windows! I wonder if that would be any different with the Venta.
Sorry to be so needy and ask so many questions. But now that I have all these nice guitars again, I want to make sure I keep them all MINT!

Thank You Sky!