-
$18,000!? A mere bagatelle!
John Buscarino Tree Of Life | Reverb
-
04-29-2022 05:27 AM
-
I will say this - yes guitars like the Marchione, and the Ibanez Anniversary are very expensive (far more than I can afford, or would probably pay if I could afford it), but they're peanuts compared to what you play for pianos, and some violins and cellos. A good violin can set you back $10,000, with the most desirable vintage ones (excluding Stradivarius) going for tens of thousands of dollars. The music director for the church band I play in, plays a Steinway concert piano, that in used condition goes for north of $30, (new ones can easily cost over $100,000) - the church never would have had the piano, if it hadn't been donated by a well-to-do couple.
-
Ugly as sin.
Originally Posted by CliffR
-
The better upright basses can get over $100K US. Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl
-
I do it primarily to please my loved ones and secondarily to annoy my enemies. It's a two-fer! Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
-
There's a Club?!?!!! Originally Posted by Litterick
I'm always the last one to hear anything!
-
Mark Campellone told me a long time ago his basic Archtop sounds just as good as his blinged out fanciest woods top of the line one.
So Bob Benedetto did the same building a very cheap wood version of his design and it also came close.
This Ibanez doesn’t even have any bling aside from the fanned fret design. So what the heck are you buying exactly? We don’t even know the luthier or luthiers names who built it?
The other interesting fact is Ibanez are basically known for laminate instruments that are feedback resistant and heavy duty. Even quite flat and neutral sounding on purpose. So carved tops are the opposite.
At least with Campellone,Buscarino,etc you have a pedigree and expectation of excellence. So explain to me as an actual instrument to be played what do I get, other than bragging rights?
I think aside from a one of a kind and anniversary celebration I’m not necessarily getting something that special!
-
It is just marketing. A guitar manufacturer make thousands of guitars a year and sells them at prices to suit the market. They do this for years, then along comes an anniversary, so they make a special example, and sell it at a remarkable price. Everybody talks about this guitar. The manufacturer's name is everywhere. Many discover their ordinary guitars; others are reminded of them. The people learn they can have these guitars at affordable prices. They buy the manufacturer's ordinary guitars.
Someone might buy the special guitar, but that hardly matters to the manufacturer. The profit is miniscule. But the guitar has earned much free publicity. If it had been sold at a reasonable price, nobody would have noticed.
-
Now we're talking! I had my credit card out until I realized that my limit is much less than a quarter of that required for the guitar and my strict rule is 0 balance at the end of every month - no exceptions. Oh well. Somebody is going to get a GREAT deal! Originally Posted by CliffR
Tony
-
Well at least with Buscarino’s Tree of Life guitar you’ll be sure to have a Great Sounding Archtop from a Master Luthier, and an even rarer tree Lol!
-
I remember the first time I saw Jimmy D'Aquisto's solo guitar. I was so used to lusting over the New Yorker and Exel models and I thought "I wouldn't buy one of them even if I DID have the money". I was living in NY in the 70's and they had a Jimmy D'A at Matty Uminov's for 5 grand. I could go uptown and get a Gibson Johnny Smith for a grand. That seemed outrageous.
There are cars that are called Concept Cars, you might catch a glimpse of one at a car show and they're often quite strange looking...until they become the norm 10 years later. Those concept cars become legends and priceless, and are seen as beautiful in the future perspective.
When I worked for Ibanez the conference room walls were bedecked with concept and prototype guitars, some of which were singularly beautiful. Thinking of the instruments that became design standards based on them, they were priceless treasures.
I think they must have made this as a concept guitar, maybe in the same spirit they made Pat Metheny's guitar, which saw tours around the world for close to a decade before it was even available to the public. His Ibanez today would be many several times more expensive than this hand built guitar.
I think it's beautiful from a design point and I love the way the high end Ibanez guitar balance in my hands. I just like their guitars when they put their full into it, which it seems they've done here.
If it's a great playing guitar and if I had so much money that it didn't set me back anything to have, I'd think it was fair to own and play history. I'd hope it'd inspire me to do it justice. If it made me play better, and inspired me to play more, it'd be priceless to me.
I have a guitar that does that for me. I wouldn't give it up for anything. I don't have a monetary value for it. It's good enough of an instrument that it's in the realm of magic. $20k would be a bargain at this point.
-
I must point out that Pat Metheny goes on about he likes a very neutral sounding guitar that doesn’t bring its own voice to the mix. He feels that it allows him to create the overall tone.
So while it may inspiring to wax on about Pat Metheny’s musical prowess. The guitar itself unlike a great D’Angelico or Buscarino isn’t that much responsible.
Also Pat’s guitar is a laminate like all Ibanez current Jazz Guitar offerings. So what exactly is this $25k Pat styled carved top?
And again no mention of who actually built it and what carved Archtop luthier qualifications do they have?
-
Maybe the point I was making didn't get across. Yes jads57 I agree with what you're saying and it's really not the same thing, but what I was thinking when I said that was Ibanez comes up with many designs in the course of their operations. They have lots of concepts that they experiment with and some of them are in existence for years without commercial realization, evidenced by the guitar they made for Pat. It was an idea they had and they worked with him for the sake of the guitar's design, extrinsic of the eventual commercial payback.
Some guitar companies are made from the success of recreating existing designs. Some experiment with new designs, things born from the ideas they get from players who want something that doesn't exist. These companies embrace the R&D aspect of guitar design. Ibanez is one of those companies. Gibson has been one of those companies. There are individual builders who are experimenters: Jimmy D'Aquisto was one of them.
What I was pointing out is in the wake of innovative design and the search for new practical niches, there is the stage of concept design, prototype building and just plain "Here's a new idea. Let's see how it works, whether it makes someone like Pat Metheny happy."
When you take a company with a parameter for innovation and experimentation and they create something that holds the potential for setting a trend through introducing a new idea that works, that vanguard project has value that may not be appreciated until the next generation of players...and market trends validate them.
That's the way I see this guitar. It's a beautifully executed concept that somebody has a chance to play, and maybe a piece of history that will impart an extrinsic value to it.
That's the extraordinary potential of this guitar.
You don't have to agree with me, but that's the point I was making, and that's all I was saying.
-
So this is a guitar design for Pat Metheny? I’m not sure what you’re alluding to? Is he testing one out like this model?
I haven’t even seen the release of the Daniel Slaman ES-250 copy Ibanez with a Charlie Christian Ibanez made for him.
Are you employed by Ibanez? And if so please give us more info on this build and it’s actual luthiers. Thanks!
-
I’ll vouch for jimmy blue he did work for Ibanez (Hoshino USA)
Read his response to you. No where does he state that guitar has anything to do with Pat M.
You have not seen the release of the “Slaman” copy because Ibanez has told their dealers it’s off the table. Only here on this forum because of a photo is there a belief that guitar is coming. It’s been removed from Ibanez literature. Although… it’s said some 20-25 were made, all sold in Japan, and I’m sure if you advertised you’d find some collector willing to sell it to you for more than 18K.
There’s only one response left for you:
-
Jazzkritter when anyone asks to many questions or points out an opinion that isn’t popular are they automatically a Troll? I’m only saying what I believe as a pro musician and someone appreciates fine instruments from that perspective.
I only asked if he worked for Ibanez for more detailed info on this particular guitar.
Personally I think they’re are far to many wankers or wannabes who espouse undereducated views on instruments. And base them off of marketplace value, and not real hands on experience.
So for me trolls are, people who add no value to the knowledge base.
I m 64 owned way too many instruments including the so called Holy Grails and made a living playing guitar for over 40 years. My perspective is actual gigging and recording with my instruments.
Not from collecting nor as a guitar salesman.
Remember we’re here to exchange info good and bad. I’m not trying to be mean but point out things as others do as well. So no hard feelings!
-
The law of supply and demand has been known and described at least since 1691. In the context of this discussion it tells us that a product is worth what any buyer is willing to pay for it.
-
collectors + speculation are not good for the players.
Too many incredible guitars staying in a case waiting for the next buyer according to me.
-
I worked for them a number of years ago, in Bensalem PA. At the time, there was a lot of collective knowledge there and a head repairman I learned a lot from, but I was the only one who was actually had training as a luthier. Originally Posted by jads57
Names are not a big thing in the Japanese guitar world, especially if you work for a company with a name (this was also once true of Gibson, Epiphone, Guild) . The same applies to high end Chinese shops. I know you're enamoured of the caché of the names you mentioned, I agree they are a talented-extraordinary group of craftsmen and artists. I also know there are exceptional instruments being built by people that are not known for their names but by their craft.
That's one thing that differs in our attitude. I worked with a builder (Al Carruth) who has such a small and select output that he's essentially off the radar of forum discussions and 'luthier's who's whos' and he likes it that way. He's not a name. He just loves knowing lutherie and builds really fine guitars that have earned him a place in the luthier's community. Where he goes, luthiers are learning from him. But there's no name value for him.
He just spends his time constantly building a better guitar and none of the time into the promotion that goes into assuring a name to the general public.
So jads57, our sensibilities are different. It doesn't mean we're necessarily at odds or I feel a need to question your contributions to this forum.
My only point has been to say that Ibanez guitar may indeed have merits to it, value and quality as a guitar. That comes from good design and quality execution. Anything else comes from a market that rides the currents of collectibility, mystique, individual personal name recognition, and the fruits of self promotion. I'm not nearly as fluent in these value systems as many of the other authoritative members of the forum.
What I say just comes from my time as a player who likes what works for me and as a luthier who builds what I need if I don't find it by someone else's hand.
-
Like many Gibson threads, this fairly radioactive thread so I am staying away from the topic de jour. That said, I will chime in on Al Carruth.
Al is not “off the radar” in the acoustic flattop and classical guitar player and luthier communities. He has a profoundly active online presence in both player and luthier online communities over the last two decades. Al, like Australian luthier/engineer Trevor Gore takes very much a scientific approach to guitar building. His mentor was Carleen Hutchins who founded the Catgut Acoustical Society. Al pioneered the use of interpreting Chladni Patterns in voicing of guitars. He also is a proponent of using non-endangered alternative tonewoods. This may be in part to help him overcome his hearing loss which is significant. Al is more known as a teacher than for his own work in my experience. I have played a number of his guitars. Some of his students are well known for their work such as Aaron Green in the classical guitar world and Mark Blanchard in the acoustic flattop world.
-
Hey thanks for the chime in. Yeah, he does some really interesting things. I have seen his archtop work and a few years ago we got this idea to take the frequency signature of some really well balanced archtops and try to replicate those same sound signatures on a flat top with a double X brace top and an X brace back. As you may know, the x braces allow for a great flexibility and control over imparting modal patterns on a vibrating top. If it could be designed and executed to a tuned flat top could duplicate the frequency sweep of an archtop, and if a full sized humbucker could be mounted to a non vibrating support structure, we wanted to see if we could make a flat top that quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, with a whole lot less work. Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
He did this. with two parallel guitars: one double X braced, and one conventionally braced. The results were most impressive.
This crossover between archtops and flattops is an exciting territory for luthiers loving the why's and how's of acoustics. He also has impressive chops as an archtop builder having built octet instruments in the violin family and recently 5 string violas with the full range of violin and viola with the fingerboard scale close to the violin.
It has been a true honor to have worked beside him. And a true privilege to play with the results.
We recently had a luthiers' convention and there was a luthier who learned from Montelione. His approach was very different, but in discussion of the process of tuning plates and joined bodies, it was clear to both of them that they were working with the exact same sets of factours and control parameters but one through tap/flex/feel and the other through tap/flex/chladni analysis, fast fourier analysis and adjustment. There is not an exclusive arrangement through the hand craft and the knowledge of the science behind it. It's all just forming the biggest most complete picture you can so your failures contribute to the solidity of future success.
This is another thread, or another forum. Fascinating stuff for the curious luthier.
Sorry for the derailment. Thanks for the contribution iim7V7IM7.
-
Pfffff....the pick up and the bridge thingy aren't even straight Originally Posted by Woody Sound
-
Sometimes the derailment is more productive than the main topic…
.
You might appreciate this. These are Mark Blanchard’s Chladni notebook when voicing the top of a flattop that he made for me. The numbers are frequencies generated to create the Chladni patterns in the non-braced top (left) and thicknessing and bracing (right). Mark took a course with Al back in 1996.
I also have worked with a luthier (Bill Comins) on “hybrid” archtop/flattop guitar. There approach was an oval hole with an asymmetric flatter arch, a hybrid x-bracing pattern, tapered rim depth and a ladder braced flat back. I would say the result was a guitar that I would describe as sounding 75% archtop (balance, attack, projection) with 25% flattop (added bass response, sustain and overtones).
Back to the regularly scheduled program.
-
On internet forums, people can be anything they want to be and it may take a while to uncover the posers. Such folks will readily spew a lot of BS about guitars and guitar building, stating it as factual. It is a curious aspect of human nature that some people simply can't seem to be able to admit they don't know about a subject being discussed, and forums seem to attract such people, unfortunately. Al Carruth is not shy about calling BS on these guys and in doing so, does a great service to those seeking information they can use when needing to know how to address issues with their guitars or in deciding what to buy. Over in the acoustic guitar forum, he has done that a number of times over the years, though I have not seen him post there lately. I have never met Al Carruth nor have I seen any of his instruments, but I have appreciated his in depth informative posts. Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
Tony
-
Totally humble and self deprecating guy, always eager for an informed discussion. We talked hundreds of hours of acoustics and it was a joy to build with him. He looked at his shop as part luthier's space, part science project. His anecdotes of 'repairing' poorly constructed builds are the stuff of legend. He had two guitars built by a luthier not to be named. The customer had commissioned the first, and found it to be lacking in low end punch, then commissioned the second to find it was great on the bass but was muffled mud on the high end. Al did a fast fourier analysis on the plates and corpus of both guitars, took thickness gauges on the graduations where he could and determined where the areas were not optimally vibrating. Then he did a modal analysis of the frequencies to determine where and how, if material were removed, or enforced, the plate vibrations could be brought into phase and tune. Originally Posted by tbeltrans
The result was two guitars that were exactly what the customer had wanted. It would have been much easier, faster and better for his reputation and $$$Lucrative, to have built the customer one correctly built guitar but yeah, he loves a challenge and he learned a lot. Giving up a commission because you learn more from mistakes, your own or other people's... that's what he's about. And he'll share all of his documents with any luthier who writes to him with puzzles (problems) that they've been stumped by.
One of the humble good guys.
Reply With Quote
Axe Fx III, Helix, or Boss GT 1000 for Metheny...
Yesterday, 08:00 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos