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I agree, but I also think there is sweet spot when it comes to automation for a small builder. Customers pay a premium to get something handmade and crafted, if you automate to much and build in too big batches you end up a small factory instead,
Originally Posted by emkc
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04-27-2022 03:31 PM
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Not a Chinese build but Indonesian. I have both and indo believe the Indo builds are better than the Chinese build Ibanez hollows.
From Ibanezwiki:
The GB10SEFM is a hollow body electric guitar model introduced by Ibanez for 2022. It is a signature model for American jazz guitarist George Benson. It is made in Indonesia.
GB10SEFM | Ibanez Wiki | Fandom
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LOL... TGP is LOADED with PRS fans. Even moreso now with the Silver Sky being released. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
Oh let the PRS fans have their fun. If they were to try this discussion at thegearpage the anti PRS crew would cream them!
But… no thoughts on that fret layout/changing scale on the JS?
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Indeed it is! I figure the anti crowd is a bunch of R8 wannabes.
That’s a fun site, gear arguments that don’t devolve into political arguments.
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Yup Originally Posted by ruger9
TGP began life as a PRS Forum.
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18K sounds like a lot doesnt it?
Imagine though if PRS were to interrupt their current production schedule, make time to develop a very limited run of prototypes of a completely new shape, with almost nothing in common or usable from existing molds/shapes/cnc programs, fine tune the prototypes into a releasable product, then utilise those CNC machines designed to make hundreds per week, and only make a few dozen instead over that same time frame.
Built into this is the depreciation cost and unit hourly rate of using a CNC machine in a complex facility designed to pump out much higher volumes. That time cost does not get amortized over hundreds bodies, just a few dozen. Same goes for all downstream processes. Setup time, teardown time (batch turnaround time loss), and down the chain you go,- inspection plans to be generated, Warehousing, marketing, new SKU management, distribution and sales, etc. All for a few dozen examples. The setup cost for a new product to market is the same whether you make 10 or 10,000. This small run from Ibanez would be a big risk to set up.
PRS makes thousands of Guitars selling at $3-5K each. A limited range of models, volumes high enough and desirability markup enough to sell at that price. That 3-5 is paying off the cost of their top notch facility and wage structure.
You then get to collection pricing. Ibanez is not pricing this to be a long term option in the market. They are intentionally limiting the quantity. Provenance, Uniqueness now driving the already high custom price higher. And there are people willing to pay. Cool. Not for me, but I'm not the target audience. Nor am I the PRS target audience.
Manufacturing is more than just the cost of the materials and product hardware alone. If anything that is one of the the smaller parts of the overall cost.
EMike
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So correct me if I’m mistaken. I believe all of the $25k instruments are made in the USA Custom Shop not the regular Japan factory.
So they are not interrupting their assembly line at all.
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Originally Posted by jads57
The company announcement says they are from both their LA custom shop and their custom shop in Japan.
Ibanez Guitars | Celebrating 50 Years Building Guitars
They have a US or a Japanese Flag next to each picture to show which custom shop. The archtop was made in the Japan custom shop. All of the Japan guitars have "JP" in the model name. US made guitars have "LA" in the model name.
Ibanez Guitars | 50 Guitars
Since these are out of the custom shops, I would assume there was very little or no interruption with their regular production assembly lines in their regular factory.
This is the custom shops doing what most custom shops do. One offs and special runs for artists relations, customers willing to pay for something special, or in this case, a special event.
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Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
PRS does special runs and custom orders all the time through their custom shop.
They call their custom shop guitars "Private Stock."
Please Wait... | Cloudflare
Sometimes they come up with unique body styles, even archtops.
They have done their own limited runs several times over ... A.K.A. "cash grabs"
Build a limited run of 25 or 50 or 250 guitars ...
market them to their most devoted fans and collectors ...
sell them for higher than usual prices ...
profit
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Maybe not the full scale production line, but if the Ibanez custom shop uses a CNC machine, same thing applies. Programs need to be written, marketing needs to be made. etc etc. Expensive machines are used and cost money to own, even if you are not using it. Depreciation can close businesses down if not careful. Even if that CNC is smaller unit, a fith the size of the production plant, it would still need its capacity utilised to make it worth having. One would hope the custom shop has very full books leading to non stop use of their smaller scale machinery which would reasonably see far more one-off runs and plenty of size changes for alternate models off the one line. The only way around that is to have a very high profit margin to pay off a process running at a lower efficiency than high volume plants. Originally Posted by jads57
If they are making all of the guitars by hand only with a drill press....
It would take quite a long time and man hours?
Some where in there the cost of wages and the cost of automation reaches parity. I imagine US and Japanese wage rates are quite high comparatively however they are not making these units for the foreseeable future, just a limited run. So the wages may actually be built into the fact they are hand made. If I were in the line of business making these- I would try to 'job out' the CNC part rough, against a well understood Quality spec and fine finish locally. I might even "free issue" the wood to use. I have no idea if that's even possible in the Luthier business but whenever I come up with an idea I think is novel or outrageous, I find its been the norm elsewhere for along time already.
EM
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Bottom line is this guitar is not worth the money other than for a Show Piece or Collectors bragging rights. As I said way earlier as an actual guitar You could have Bob Benedetto build you a guitar that was actually a better Archtop, or any number of fine Archtop luthiers like Mark Campellone, Bill Comins, John Buscarino, etc.
And that’s their specialty as luthiers not solid body or laminate instruments.So why are people getting so excited when we don’t t even know the luthier is?
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An $18K Ibanez is not very exciting to me ...
I find it interesting ... maybe if I was more of a collector and $18K was just a little pocket change to me I'd grab it, but it's not.
So yes, there are other guitars I'd rather buy with that kind of money.
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"Provenance, Uniqueness now driving the already high custom price higher. And there are people willing to pay. Cool. Not for me, but I'm not the target audience. Nor am I the PRS target audience."
"An $18K Ibanez is not very exciting to me ...
I find it interesting ... maybe if I was more of a collector and $18K was just a little pocket change to me I'd grab it, but it's not."
"Bottom line is this guitar is not worth the money other than for a Show Piece or Collectors bragging rights."
I think we can all agree none of us have the coin for this. But can we agree that many do and have bought them out? There was obviously a market for them. Same goes for any one-off Fender Masterbuilt, or Les Paul as displayed at NAAM. And many people make better S-style or LP style guitars than those two as well, for less.
I don't think there is any point in trying to justify if this is a fair price or not, 'cause when it comes to collectibles anything goes. It was always going to be an expensive build. The markup then just put another nail in the coffin. The % of markup they got away with is the only thing to get excited about. An people bought them. Peace to them all. Their money after all.
M
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Not sure why some of you are so torqued about a one off anniversary special (made in Japan, btw, not the LA shop) that no one is asking/offering you to buy.
I’m sure if Gibson offered a One of a kind hand built anniversary special one-off for 18K people here would have an orgasm wishing they could buy it. That rather than bashing Gibson for doing it. Ive never understood the anti Ibanez attitude here, but it’s alive and well.
Anyway, the L5 is listing at 11,999, not far at all from 18,000.
Gibson Custom L-5 CES Hollowbody Electric Guitar Natural | Musician's Friend
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Not sure who here would do that, but certainly not me! And especially not with Gibson's current (lacking) consistency/QC... Originally Posted by jazzkritter
And I am definitely not "anti-Ibanez", they are a great company. I'd love to try the ATZ-100. And I wanted a GB10 for awhile. I'd LOVE a Pia, but I can't play the Wizard neck shape.
PS I wouldn't pay $12G for any guitar, either.
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+1 Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
Yup I can verify that from first hand experience - I work as a Quality Engineer, and many people (including more than a few accountants IMO) don't realize that oftentimes labor costs to make a product, are far higher than the material costs to make a product. For instance, on the quality side of things, for first time/first article items, there are even more extensive quality checks/inspections done (called PPAPs, [which I can verify, are very time consuming]), than would be done for a normal production run. Throw in the high dollar value for the item, or stringent requirements (such as for aerospace products), that require more exacting standards, and the time and production costs can go way up. I won't even go into setup scrap, that occurs as a result of setting up machinery to make parts (including guitar bodies and necks) - saving a CNC program for the next time you make the item does not mean that adjustments won't have to be made, in order to make things right, it just (hopefully) means the adjustments will be easier to make. The problem is, the costs I just mentioned, are not considered by the average person, because they typically have not been exposed to a machining environment.
Oh yeah, and lets not forget tooling, and for that matter measurement equipment. You can't just say "let her rip" and walk away from the machining job after setting up the machine, you have to monitor tool wear, and take periodic measurements that specified dimensions are not drifting out of tolerance due to said tool wear, so machine adjustments, and tooling changes can be made. Tooling and measurement equipment is not cheap (a halfway decent digital caliper [by that, I mean Mitutoyo - not Harbor freight], can easily cost $200) - especially if the tooling or measurement equipment is custom made for the manufacturing job being done.Last edited by EllenGtrGrl; 04-29-2022 at 06:12 AM.
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To me, it is perfectly fine for a guitar maker to ask whatever they want for a given instrument and also perfectly fine for a customer being willing to pay it. What I do think is absolutely amazing, to the point of almost silliness, is the quality of the Ibanez that I got used for just a couple hundred dollars. Brand new, that model currently sells for around $700. There was NOTHING anywhere near that quality in that price range when I was growing up, in adjusted dollars. Sears Silvertone or Montgomery Ward would have been the only choices for the most part. At the low end of the price range for guitars, there are real bargains to be had. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
I see no point in focusing on the stuff we can't afford and instead, all points for appreciating the quality in the stuff we can afford. I can't imagine any arguments against that. To me, Ibanez is doing us a huge favor by building quality at such low prices, and can't imagine any anti-Ibanez sentiment for that.
Tony
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It’s not anti Ibanez as much as anti extravagant instruments that will never be used to actually make music! Such BS in my opinion and against the intent of the tool.
Even John D’Angelico and Jimmy D’Aquisto never sold instruments for near ridiculous money in their lifetimes.
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Reminds me of this, also $18 000. How come nobody writes to Stephen and calls him a ratfink that daring to price it $18000? Is it because Stephen is not some nameless faceless to this white bread crowd Nipponese in Nipponeseland?
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Ageing does suck for some people, doesn't it? The next step is usually to prosecute your right to bear arms, buy a gun and blow your own brains out or drink yourself stupid to the point where you are dead anyway.
Life is insufferable. Why live?
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While I’ve called this out Marchione’s excessive prices on TGP, I’ve never done that here. But I’ll say he’s definitely over priced in the Market Place. And I also feel this has to do with his personal ego.
But I do respect that he’s a Fine Luthier and probably in the same league as some of the top ones. I have been hesitant to say this since I have not played his instruments to compare them.
Hopefully others have,some experience with his guitars. And if I’m wrong they will correct my assessment.
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OMG are you actually trying to play the race card?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Reminds me of this, also $18 000. How come nobody writes to Stephen and calls him a ratfink that daring to price it $18000? Is it because Stephen is not some nameless faceless to this white bread crowd Nipponese in Nipponeseland?
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How about crowdfunding a keyboard with built in breath analyser?
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I've settled on drinking and playing Hammond. The greats locked themselves in the woodshed and did drugs voluntarily in their good life. May as well have that as an escape route in my bad life. Why not? Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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