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After hearing this recording about a year ago, I've always been curious about those black nylon strings:
and the other day I found a reasonable price on a set of the corresponding guitar strings. They arrived today and I've begun to experiment with them.
They look very classy, a very dark grey with crimson red headers (about the colour of sealing wax) and soft to the touch. Interestingly, there's what appears to be a round-wire nickel-plated winding underneath the black nylon. Or maybe monel? I'm not certain exactly what I expected, but not this.
For now, I've only tried the low 3 strings, comparing to the Plectrum AC112s I had on - acoustically. 1st impression: they sound very similar to the sound in the recording above.
I'm currently in drop-D so the low E didn't stay on long because it doesn't really work at that lower tension and is too noticeably sharp (needs more compensation). It's also a bit too dull sounding too quickly. I'm going to give the A and D a little longer. They're very comfortable to play and sound interesting, with a (lack of) colouring that reminds me of monel strings but much less metallic. I may end up missing the spicy/warm colour of the brass winding though.
Anyone else try these acoustically? Any idea how long they take to break in?
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02-16-2022 06:32 PM
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What guitar do you use with them?
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Sorry, I'm trying them on my Loar. But I might find I prefer them on the jumbo (this is another hunch).
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I've tried them on an archtop and a 335 for some period (the La Bella version). I remember them being dark, nice to the touch. If your guitar sounds too bright or a bit metallic they could be of use.
Eventually I wanted to return to a more normal sound so I got back to regular flatwounds. Perhaps I should try them again. They sure are uncommon, so they might help with forming a personal sound.
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LaBella make 2 versions, black and white, the latter apparently being better. I can't remember now if they come with wound or wire trebles. I'd definitely like to try tape-wound B & E trebles once; Galli make them but their set is really expensive.
Thing is, soundwise, there's dark, there's deep, there's warm ...What I'm looking for is a sound that's as close as possible to that of good nylon bass strings (I like the defunct Aranjuez A500 Brillante Gold, and now use GHS 2100w PB-wounds with an 80/20 Galli Aureum low E on my nylon stringer). I'm not sure yet the Pyramids come closer to that sound than the Plectrums or Earthwood silk-and-steel. They're dark, but also a bit hoarse, and might be closer in sound to pure gut string.
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I 'm ordering some! Can't go wrong with more warm and dark, at least with my guitars, playing and amps..
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The Pizzarellis have used black tapewound strings for decades. Bucky started with them, and John followed. If you want to know how tapewound strings sound on an archtop, listen to Bucky and John.
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I took a look at the Pyramid website and the black nylons are listed among the acoustic strings. So I take it that they don‘t work with magnetic pickups. Is that correct? If you tried them on a 335, that suggests amplification to me.
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As usual that gives you an idea of the electric sound... The acoustic sound is very similar to what you hear in the Atlas video above (even though I'm certain that's also the amplified sound).
Originally Posted by sgosnell
No. Pyramid's website is a bit strange, and gives preciously little information about the strings. Originally Posted by docsteve
These are in fact sold as electric guitar strings. I'm pretty certain the metal winding underneath the nylon is nickel-plated steel (I scratched the "nude" header with a pair of scissors; some tiny metal flakes came of and the wire became brilliant; we'll see if it ends up rusty). I've got a pair of magnets on my stand to hold scores in place and they're attracted by those much more strongly than my TI Plectrums.
I once contacted Galli to ask how they thought their black nylon strings (BN120 IIRC) would work on an acoustic (their set is too expensive just to order and try). They replied that they thought they would sound muted, not good. Probably thought I play bluegrass or whatever else a jumbo is typically used for
I now have the black G on too because I'm starting to appreciate the sound and want to get a recording. I'd be very curious to know how this kind of design would sound with brass winding underneath the nylon. Probably still different from the silk-and-brass steels I usually use.
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I use the la Bella on my archtop and they sound fantastic. I describe the sound as "Fwap!". Listen to bucky on April Showers album.
John Stowell uses Thomastick classical steel tape wounds on his electric travel guitar he tours with. They only come in 10s though.
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Been using Labella tapes for a while and don't plan on going back!
Warning: this is my opinion only!
The sound is great and the feel is soft to to the touch, easier to play for sure.
Black or White tapes is purely a matter of choice. one is not better than the other
White tapes are suppose to be a little brighter but that is it.
They are more expensive but they last quite a long time and a side note is that they are not as hard on the pick, so that lasts longer too.
Only the 1st 2 strings are steel, all the rest are tapes
IMPORTANT!! If you buy them !!!
LEAVE ABOUT AN INCH AND A HALF OR MORE AT THE MACHINE HEADS OR THEY WILL UNWIND AND YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STAY IN TUNE!!
No extras in the set.
Great strings!!
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Back in the 1970's and 80's I used tape wound strings. There were two choices, Fender and D'Angelico. On the D'angelico sets, the high E and B were tape wound. Fender supplied a tape wound high E and B and also a pair of plains. I found that the tape wound plain strings sounded more balanced than the plains.
I loved the feel of those strings, but found the tone too dark. Roundwounds and Chromes are too bright. TI Flats give me the jazz tone my ears want to hear.
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Any idea who made those Fender or DA strings?
And ... how long did the tape-wound trebles last compared to the plain wires?
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I cannot say who made them, but the tape wound high E string always broke long before I was ready to change strings. Originally Posted by RJVB
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I figured...
I'm preparing an analytic little sample recording (I have to edit out the worst bloopers because I can't even seem to avoid mistakes in even the simplest riffs these days
) plus a comparable sample of the AC112s I had on before.
One thing that will probably keep me from using these full-time is intonation. From the D down they go sharp very easily if you press a bit hard or pull just a bit too much (to avoid the string buzzing under your finger or to avoid a neighbouring string from buzzing against that finger). Plus, the G and D are near perfectly compensated but the A is about 10ct sharp at the 12th fret (the low E even more); it looks like I'd need a different saddle to get all strings acceptably intonated there.
The thing about pressure sensitivity comes back in quite a few of the reviews I read, also of the La Bella strings.
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Here are the promised samples. It's a little single-string melodic line covering about the entire range, played twice on each of the wound strings. A first time aiming for a nice full tone, the 2nd time aiming for volume (which doesn't really make a lot of difference in actual volume, that's probably my own lack of technique).
As said somewhere above, I don't have the Pyramid low E on at the moment so the AC112 low E is recorded twice here.
Guitar used: The Loar LH-650, recorded with a T.Bone SC600, an ART TubeMP preamp (tube gain at about 37%) through a SoundBlaster Play!3 into Audacity at 24bits, 48kHz. Mike was aimed diagonally at the 12th fret, no post-processing other than normalising the gains on both recordings so the "loud" part on the low E is at approximately the same volume.
The guitar is in Drop-D and was set up for the AC112s; I've only cranked up the action on the bass side a tiny bit for the Pyramids. So you'll hear some fret buzz and also probably the intonation issue I mentioned above.
EDIT: in case this could make a difference: I hold the guitar in classical position, using a DeOro support.
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Listening to this recording again it struck me that esp. the Pyramid G string sounds a lot like how I'd expect a monofilament nylon string to sound at this kind of tension.
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I've been using the La Bella Tapes on an archtop for awhile now, and this is my main complaint. Their tension is very low, and even moderate fretting pressure make notes go sharp. If you like a high action, forget it. I had to use the ginormous 14-67 Tapes with a low action to make the intonation problem tolerable. (The 12-56 Tapes made me want to tear my hair out; they were elastic.) Originally Posted by RJVB
The other problem is, although they have a rich dark tone, they do "thwack" (or as TheGrandWazoo said above "fwap"). I'm playing the 14-67 Tapes here: Login • Instagram and you can obviously hear the thwacking. It works for old-time swing comping: Login • Instagram.
They respond to finger picking very well. Actually that might be when they're at their best. Great for fingerstyle bossa's and such.
The Pyramids look almost fuzzy in that close-up picture posted. The Tapes are smooth flatwound. I'd upload a close-up picture here but it's not working for me.
I think they're neat to have in the armoury. They work well with different pickup types (magnetic, piezo). And I've kept the archtop above strung with them since last summer.
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And the tapewound strings last FOREVER. I actually bulk ordered the treble singles directly from La Bella (which took almost six months to arrive!), since I'd be changing those twice or thrice before I change the others.
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My experience too with the Pyramids, esp. with the A (and low E, IIRC). Originally Posted by ArnoldSchoenberg
Interesting that you say so: AFAIK that style is usually played on nylon strings, so my impression they sound like that isn't too far off apparently.Great for fingerstyle bossa's and such.
Yes, they look more like they're tightly wound with nylon string rather than nylon tape.The Pyramids look almost fuzzy in that close-up picture posted.
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Here's a snippet of the intro to William Bay's Nocturne #3 recorded under the conditions described above. The take with the AC112s is a bit older, hence the difference in tempo.
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Not having any intonation issues here at all.
Labella 12,54 black and white tapes.
Using on:
Sadowsky
Ibanez PM2
Ibanez AFC151
D'Angelo New Yorker
Peerless Monarch 16
All sounds great with no issues on slipping or tuning.
Especially Sadowsky, pick that up in the morning without having to adjust.
You definitely need to not cot short on top or it will slip with tuning.
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So you don't notice them going sharp if you press a bit too hard, and you don't have to adjust your compensation (put the bridge more diagonally)? Do you use them acoustically or purely as electric guitar strings? Any preference of white vs black? Originally Posted by jazzimprov
BTW, do these also leave the inner, metal-wound string exposed at the header and if so, could you please measure the diameter of the inner A and E6 strings?
I ordered 2 sets of nylon tape over 80/20 brass inner winding from Pyramid (got them in about 10 days!) and installed the A, D and G strings on my archtop and my jumbo. The low E was so low tension on the jumbo that it buzzed on the saddle (!) and I think I already said it won't do for drop-D on the archtop.
The sound is exactly as I hoped: still deep and warm lows but more bell-like clarity (liveliness) higher up. With the little hoarseness they have I was reminded of Kathy Sledge These strings could really reconcile me with the normally too boomy/resonant nature of the jumbo but the compensation issue is really a problem there because of the fixed bridge. The G is spot-on, the D acceptable (maybe 5ct sharp at the 12th fret) but the A is almost 20ct sharp at the 12th fret - after it settles because it also goes sharp from plucking.
I'm guessing this is a result of a too high nylon-to-metal ratio. Maybe it's lower in the LaBellas. They're more expensive here so I'd like to be certain of this before ordering (and possibly finding out they're more of the same).
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And they just went off. Not sure why, but increasingly I've found myself looking for a bit more resonance, and less buzzing when I play a chord with my thumb (or pick). The tricky intonation was also starting to get old but I think the main reason is that the swing piece I'm currently working on needs too many barré chords (where the B string has to sound, which is always the stumbling block for me that causes me to apply more pressure than needed).
These Pyramids are not low tension despite their susceptibility to fretbuzz. The nylon outer winding makes them feel comfy, but I've always noted that they seem taut for strings that *should* be lower tension because of their design. Maybe the values in the table I posted elsewhere is correct and they do have tensions that are equal to or even higher than those in regular nickel-wound 12-52s.
Anyway, I replaced the A,D,G 1 by 1 by the Plectrum AC112s that they had replaced and could almost feel the guitar open up and regain some of that "internal reverb" I had been missing. I've also been able to straighten the neck a bit (may try to go a bit further still) so my barrés have become a little less stressful for the left hand.
I did a side-by-side flexibility comparison (sag of equal lengths of string under their own weight) and the Plectrums are definitely more flexible. Probably not amazing that double-wounds are stiffer but I'm still a bit surprised that a simple layer of nylon tape can make a thin wound string that much less flexible. It fits with my impression that these strings behave a bit like plain wire trebles.
Now the weird part. The guitar had been compensated for the Plectrums (by me, verified by a luthier). I had to shift the bass side of the saddle backwards considerably for the Pyramids, as mentioned above (and they are unusable on a flattop with fixed saddle for that reason). So going back to the Plectrums I was prepared to move the saddle back to its original position. Instead, I found I had to move the treble side backwards. Not by as much as I moved the bass side but that may be explained by the fact my saddle leans backwards more on the treble side.
The only difference between that initial configuration for Plectrums and now is that I now use a 13,16 E and B treble; could that have such an impact on compensation? I saw no signs the saddle has moved forward, and the lean cannot have increased either (correcting that would have required moving the saddle forward). But maybe the guitar itself has adapted (think warped...) in reaction to the Pyramid strings, the higher temperatures and the fact I've been keeping her out of the case, suspended from the headstock?
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Different strings, especially with different gauges, can often affect intonation. Having to move the bridge slightly after changing to different strings is not unusual, but it's also affected by the player's ear, and some can tolerate more intonation issues than others.
IME the playing difficulty of the B string is often caused by having the nut slot too high. It's one of the thickest strings in the set, and thus one of the stiffest. That allows the action to be set a little lower than for the others without fret buzz. I prefer the nut slot to be cut so that it's the same height as the first fret, on all the strings, but especially for the B. If the slot is too high, it's impossible to get perfect action height, and thus more difficulty in fretting. It's a fussy job, but worth the effort IMO. Of course, you also need the saddle radius (or at least the slots) to match the fretboard radius. That's also a common problem.
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