-
Lord Keynes famously stated: ”In the long run we’re all dead.” I’d like to understand what’s going to happen in jazz guitar amplification before too long. I don’t expect sudden landslides, for the simple reason that guitarists are conservative and amps and cabs are ”foreverware”, with a thinnish second-hand market.
Yet, a megatrend towards lighter gear has been evident from about 2015 (a decade behind bass amplification.) We also see an increasing use of tone-coloring/signal-mutilating digital effects and preamps, and less role for the on-board features of the traditional combo. Are modeling amps the future or a fad, with the ”real things” returning? Or, will on-stage amplification vanish further, everything being fed to PA from an advanced preamp (like Neural DSP Quad Cortex) through a mixing console? Will in-ear monitoring replace even the personal monitoring role of on-stage speakers? Will small jazz clubs without PA systems remain the last outposts of how it used to be? And if so, as pleasant-listening tourist attractions rather than boundary-pushing forges? Conversely, will lighter, more portable and battery-powered gear enable performing musicians to exploit new opportunities, from streets to private homes?
I’m raising these questions not only for the sake of interest but of self-interest. A one-man speaker cab sweat shop just cannot afford tailored market research. If it could, the researchers would formulate a barrage of questions to the trade and to end-users, which we all are on this Forum. So I’m asking direct, hoping to hear especially the views of active performers whose future at least in part depends on how the gigging and stage scene evolves.
-
02-12-2022 06:56 PM
-
I think that may be the case for many kinds of playing. There's something about the interaction between the speaker, the guitar and the player that in-ear won't replace though. The visceral feel of the sound hitting you...or something. I'm probably talking about louder guitaring than most jazz.
I'm long past my performing days. We didn't even have in-ear back then. But I experienced it in the recording studio where hearing myself in the cans wasn't at all the same feel as being in the room in front of the amp.
I think there will be guitar amps as long as there are electric guitars. Maybe not for everyone though.
-
I have expected the transition to signal-chain-to-PA for touring bands and digital processors to powered cabs for club bands for about 10-15 years (ever since the Yamaha Magic Stomp came out and Holdsworth demonstrated what could be done with it). The Grateful Dead stopped using on-stage amps in their last few years, going to preamps and from there to the PA and using in-ear monitors to try to save what was left of their hearing.
Then along came laptop based modelers (McLaughlin) and the high-powered modelers, IRs, etc., and I thought "game over."
But not so.
Guitarists still like amps and 12" speakers that fail to reproduce anything above 5kHz, that are loud enough to flap their trouser legs around, damage their hearing, etc. Heck, that's what I like! I used a compact modeling pedal (Zoom MS100bt) and an FRFR powered cab (Alto Ts110) with good results, but not quite as satisfying as a good combo amp. I am thinking about the Helix Stomp and the powered cab FRFR solution again as a compact and lightweight solution to playing non-jazz that asks for lots of different sounds and effects (R&B/neo-soul, etc.).
-
I think most jazz performing musicians will stick with both tube amps, which more or less stay the same, and solid state amps, which keep getting better and better, lighter and more powerful.
For most players I know tubes are love, and solid state are tools, so that says a lot. Don't personally see much use for digital in jazz.
The simplicity and ease of having an amp onstage can't be beat, and jazz usually has low volumes, small stages and band members really close together. So I reckon amps will stay relevant.
-
My career was in aerospace engineering. Control centers and satellite comm mostly. The hardest part was always capturing requirements. It's like the user community expected engineering to 'just know'. Sigh. There were Level A requirements (thematic, purpose, function) broken down to Level B (implementation) then to Level C (roll out and testing).
Don't know how representative my requirements would be, but I can try to articulate a few. Reality for me will be backing tracks, amp simulators, speaker IR's, and voice support. Solo. Away from power plugs and other support.
Level A
- Support voice, backing tracks, saxophone, and guitar. So, a Full Range Flat Response cabinet.
- Powered speaker cabinet with enough amplification for a restaurant or small wedding (say.. a digital 300W Class D as a generalization and minimum)
- Compact car portable. 40 lbs or less. Could ask for less weight but I have historically handled that much without objection.
- One hand carry with an ergonomic grip for walking with the thing.
- Durable finish and physical speaker protection. Wood finish (e.g. Schertler) would be preferable.
- Quick set up / tear down
- Capability to bypass the amp section and use as an un-powered speaker cabinet with a removable back for a combo sound
- Upgrade-able Bluetooth support
- Some may want a lithium battery on board. I prefer to keep it separate.
Level B
- Feet to keep speaker off of wet ground
- Hole for a speaker stand
- Nested (protected from bumps): Volume control. On/off with light. Fused. Quality jacks.
- Different input levels and connections. Line, mic, consumer. 1/4, RCA, XLR, mini, Bluetooth.
Lots more but have to leave..
All I have time for right now.. if you would like more let me know. I think collecting requirements is the single most important, and probably the hardest, step in engineering.
-
Kind of depends on the situation you find yourself in. In a std band setting amps are the preferred method, but in ear changes the dynamic. And unless you can somehow go direct without your amp speaker, and or bury your amp under stage and Mike it.
There are so many direct methods like amp pedals , etc. the trick is balancing with others for a monitor mix you can live with. And unfortunately there aren’t usually good sound people that understand what the players need.
-
Making forecasts is very difficult, especially of the future.
-
Gitterbug- at first I thought the op was about amps for electric guitars in general until I saw your name. For rock, blues, loud distorted intense music the answer may well be very different -
but some experienced on this forum pointed out something I had not considered when asking about open backed vs closed back cabinets: in a jazz ensemble the other musicians need to hear you as much as the audience.
I have often wondered if the current generation of 12 inch cab combinations and speakers are a byproduct of rock music and it’s needs/desires.
I was reconciling this against why the Quilter MP2 8” was their most popular model. It was closed probably in order to get low frequency out. The 8” gives a far less beamy output than 12 or 15” from what I understood, but high headroom (high volume capacity) amps simply do not get matched with 8” drivers- probably due to rock’s popularity and demand for 1x12, 2x12, 4x12 and no one asking for 8.
long ramble short, for your bandmates to hear you (good dispersion) and dynamic range of horns, is it time for the 200w SS 4x8 or 2x8 combo with FRFR speakers? Quilter tried with the frontline extension cab.
eMike
-
We'll probably see hyper-traditionalist hand-carved archtop players running through high-tech digital processors-to-powered-cabinets, and solid body players who just can't let go of their hand-wired point-to-point tube amps, just because.
-
I think we’ll see 3 distinct tracks continue to develop and diverge. Non-performers will stick to low power, light combos and well integrated separates for home and non-commercial group settings. As has always been the case, many will adopt whatever their idols use.
Solo and small group players will continue the migration to smaller and lighter but better and more powerful combos and tiny heads with great 6” to 10” speakers.
The IEM and DI / house board approach will win out for frequent performers in larger, louder settings where the house sound is all that matters. Subtleties in individual sound are subordinate to what’s heard by the audience when the venue is a large theater, broadcast / recording studio, wedding party with 200 guests etc. And those pros in this group are good enough to replicate their sound without being bathed in stage volume or feel.
-
i like what dvmark is doing with the microtube amps. Until fender makes their AB763 amp in a licensable chipset, I think it's the height of SS amp circuitry.
-
I don't know if it would be popular, but I'd be happy with a pedal board that includes preamp and amp -- and a cabinet or two, depending on the venue. Something like my ME80, but with the amplification. Then I could bring whatever cab fit the job. If the cab didn't require a wire (wireless technology) and sounded good, that would be an advantage.
I can't really speak for other players. I do have the impression that people are influenced by players who get an unusually good sound, and then move toward that style of gear, needed or not.
-
Now rehearsing with an Eon One Compact which meets many of the above requirements. Haven't gigged with it yet but very pleased with its performance so far. Haven't owned a guitar amplifier for 15 years or so, as an amateur doing only occasional low volume gigs my needs are quite different compared to many here I imagine.
Originally Posted by Spook410
-
As fabled jazz guitarist Yogi Berra used to say: "The future ain’t what it used to be." Originally Posted by sgosnell
-
Whoa! Thank you all! So many fine responses while I was sound asleep. And a lot of insight to take on board and digest. Won't even try at this point - let's see what the day rakes in from the Old World.
Cheers,
Markku
-
20 years ago digital modelers were predicted to replace traditional instrument amps. We were supposed to go directly into the PA. It didn't happen, simply because the guitar player's instrument consists of guitar plus amp. Even though current modelers are good and convenient in many situations, I find the trend is going in the other direction; the instrument amps make a strong comeback on stage. Classic tube amps are in favour.
-
I think it will all live in parallel.
For example lately I've been using just a preamp into the mixer – monitoring either with wedges or in-ear. In-ear is pretty much the standard for every kind of production where the guitar is not central – like urban. Personally I think I still prefer wedges.
If I'd play in a small club that has a decent PA and monitoring now I would use this setup too (did it before corona with nice results). I thought that this would be good enough in the 8-piece funk band but lately I've been also using it in our organ trio and liked it.
BUT if I would play a venue that doesn't have a good PA system I would still bring an amp – as in this case it's less effort – just plug and play.
I'm not sure about super light weight amps. And I'm not keen on super small amps like the little jazz – tried it, but didn't like. A friend of mine has one of these new digital fender deluxe amps and he's liking it. I'd consider something like that if my tube amps would die – but they are still healthy.
-
I see a lot more pedal board based amps around now. The stuff out of victory is pretty slick- look at the V4 dutchess- a clean full voltage tube driven preamp into a class D output stage amp. “American” voiced I heard. There is also the “Marshall” voiced version and a “vox” style. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
they strike me as the next gen tube version of the quilter super blocks. A wee bit more $$ though.
M
-
in your experience does his apply for acoustic instruments as well? (And would archtops fall into this class) Originally Posted by JCat
I can see a desire for on stage amp & cab certainly the case for high volume acts where amp sag/bloom and harmonic feedback can be a desirable thing.
For archies the case is for more clean headroom with no compression?
I value your thoughts by the way- not arguing at all just so we’re clear. ?
I’ve always wondered why Archies don’t utilise 100w tube stages for clean dynamic range (doesn’t have to be loud) but I guess it also comes down to weight, cost, and 100w amps not usually being low gain designs?
I was wondering if the Victory V140 would be that amp for the valve tone crowd?
Emike
-
That’s what Wes Montgomery did, then I don’t know, chorus came along and ruined everything. Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
-
I think a downward firing speaker onto a
(plan view) circular waveguide is the way to go
a la bose
dispersing sound in all directions evenly
in the horizontal plane
-
Acoustic Archtop, Electric Archtop, Direct to PA, modeling, tube amp, SS Amp, all have been available since the mid 1980s and continue to all be available. Do people really select their equipment based on fads or trends?
-
Hi Mike Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
From my limited horizon (in my filter bubble) I see people putting their amps up front on stage again. No hiding in the back line, but up front so that everyone can see them.
Most of the time, it would be classic combos < 50W, miked into the PA. It's old school, but also a very convenient solution to control the tone and get decent monitoring.
This applies to all kind of guitars (archtops, solidbodies, semis and flattops) and genres (Jazz, Blues, Soul, Funk, P&W, Country etc.) save for Classical acoustic guitar or Heavy Metal.
Jazz come in many different forms, and sometimes there are "rules" on the bandstand, e.g the swing band, where the amp would typically be hidden in the back line.
If my objective would be to hide the fact I'm amplified, I would go piezo and wireless.
For any application with genuine acoustic instruments were the guitar needs to be amplified (that would be most situations when performing together with other acoustic instruments, assuming we want the guitar to be heard) we would have to rely on a condenser mic.
-
In my corner of the world, typical jazz gigs are in small restaurants, bars, and clubs, and at private events. Many players travel by mass transit. So there's a premium on portable, simple gear that can be set up quickly. The sorts of venues I'm talking about often don't have PA's, or if they do, no monitors. So I don't see people transitioning completely to IEM or some sort of pedal-based pre-amp/modeler/tone-shaper set-up. Small combos will be the mainstay for any run of time I can envision. Many (most?) players also play other styles that call for more effects and are more likely to be performed in venues that have backlines, PA's, and monitoring. For those gigs, leaving the amp home and relying on a pedal-based approach makes sense. So people do have stuff that's suited to that as a complement to their amp-based set-up (not as a replacement), and I think this is growth area. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
In this context, and this very specific niche of the world, I don't think many guitarists are interested in head/cabinet set-ups. Two products instead of one to research and buy + two things to carry instead of one + another cable to connect the two pieces + another failure point in setting up takes that configuration out of the running for an awful lot of guitarists. Head/cab (as oppose to combo) is not a common sight on jazz bandstands around here, and I don't see that changing, especially as there are now so many really good small/light combos..
-
I think more of us like to try new things, be they new concepts or new applications of older concepts. As a kid, I went to try the first wahwah pedal and the first distortion device (Maestro Fuzztone!) at our local music store when they came out (which was a loooong time ago - I bought the wah but passed on the fuzz). I’ve bought and rapidly sold many new ideas over the ensuing decades, like early active pickups, the original Peavey Transtube, and the first Zoom effects box. I’m 75 and have gone out to try and potentially buy a Strandberg, Tonemasters, Henricksens, multieffects devices etc etc in the last year. I adopted 2 DV Marks, 2 neo speakers, Lace Alumitones, a Quilter, and the latest Alesis 88 key USB controller in the process. Originally Posted by icr
Fads and trends? Not so much - but education starts with exposure and grows with experience. Some of the above were flashes in their pans and some had legs. But opinions without experience are like guitars without strings.
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale