Future of jazz guitar amplification?

[ronjazz]

I went to the Bose L1 systems as soon as they were released. Finally, an amplifier for guitar that could be heard by the entire band as well as the audience, without blowing anybody's ears out! It did take some time and experimenting to find a way into the very clean, clear, almost antiseptic Bose hi-fi sound, but things like the Yamaha Stomp and various Digitech, Tech 21 and Boss pedals and multi-effects units solved that problem. I have used a Bose Compact for 99% of my gigs for the past 10 years, at least. It has a 1/4" out for going to the PA in large venues, and my recording engineer for 4 of my CDs came to a show and was amazed at the sounds I could get: he heard a Vox AC-30, a Deluxe reverb and a Mesa Boogie in the course of a couple of hours, none of which were anywhere near the gig; they were in the multi-effects pedals put through a tube mic preamp. Since the Bose system came out, I have played thousands of gigs without a guitar amp, very happily, given the light weight, easy setup and terrific sound from the Compact. Especially effective with an an amplified nylon-string guitar, whether with a pickup or a microphone, and almost completely feedback-resistant. And now there are a few other line-array systems available that may be preferable to the Bose for some folks, and are well-worth trying out.

[Stringswinger]

For jazz guitar. a small combo amp gets the job done, particularly for those who are not playing concerts or dedicated music clubs.

I have one regular gig at a dedicated music club and they have a PA, so I could use a pedalboard amp, but frankly, it is easier for me to forego use of their PA and just show up with my Henriksen Blu 6 on one shoulder and my guitar on the other shoulder. Setup and breakdown is a breeze.

Tube amps are not going anywhere, just as Strats, Teles, 335's and Les Pauls are not going anywhere. I have a tube amp, but for gigs, I prefer the weight and dependability of the solid State combos.

Small solid state combos will continue on. Digital technology will continue on. And there will always be cats who will be interested in mixing amp heads with different cabinets in the quest for tone.

It is a big marketplace and there is room for the old, the new and newer variations of the old.

[pingu]

I went to the Bose L1 systems as soon as they were released. Finally, an amplifier for guitar that could be heard by the entire band as well as the audience, without blowing anybody's ears out! .

Quite
I believe it’s having a very wide sound dispertion that achieves this
happy outcome
(the L1 compact has a degree 180 degree horizontal dispersion)

what do you think of that ?

that’s also why I believe this 360 degree kinda technology might be great too

SoundLink Revolve+ II portable and long-lasting Bluetooth speaker | Bose

obviously a bigger one with higher
power handling/spl

could that work ?
what do you think ?

[Spook410]

I don't think building a product targeting chord melody jazz players is the best business model. I also don't see jazz trios and quartets where the guitar is a vertical element being all that common. Or maybe it's such a tiny niche, it would work for a small company.

It's safe to say the digital signal processing, communications (e.g. Bluetooth, 5g), and battery tech will outstrip the physics limitations of the loudspeaker market. Adaptation of speakers will be challenging as these other technologies race ahead. Or maybe there will be some foundational shift and music will be broadcast nearby to phones and speakers will be obviated.

[pingu]

I don't think building a product targeting chord melody jazz players is the best business model. I also don't see jazz trios and quartets where the guitar is a vertical element being all that common. Or maybe it's such a tiny niche, it would work for a small company.

It's safe to say the digital signal processing, communications (e.g. Bluetooth, 5g), and battery tech will outstrip the physics limitations of the loudspeaker market. Adaptation of speakers will be challenging as these other technologies race ahead. Or maybe there will be some foundational shift and music will be broadcast nearby to phones and speakers will be obviated.

I disagree ,
I think you’re always gonna need
actual soundwaves in the actual air

(with wide dispersion )

the inside of the bose revolve+
speaker downward firing to a waveguide to give 360 deg coverage




Ive got one , it’s very good

[rpjazzguitar]

In my corner of the world, typical jazz gigs are in small restaurants, bars, and clubs, and at private events. Many players travel by mass transit. So there's a premium on portable, simple gear that can be set up quickly. The sorts of venues I'm talking about often don't have PA's, or if they do, no monitors. So I don't see people transitioning completely to IEM or some sort of pedal-based pre-amp/modeler/tone-shaper set-up. Small combos will be the mainstay for any run of time I can envision. Many (most?) players also play other styles that call for more effects and are more likely to be performed in venues that have backlines, PA's, and monitoring. For those gigs, leaving the amp home and relying on a pedal-based approach makes sense. So people do have stuff that's suited to that as a complement to their amp-based set-up (not as a replacement), and I think this is growth area.

In this context, and this very specific niche of the world, I don't think many guitarists are interested in head/cabinet set-ups. Two products instead of one to research and buy + two things to carry instead of one + another cable to connect the two pieces + another failure point in setting up takes that configuration out of the running for an awful lot of guitarists. Head/cab (as oppose to combo) is not a common sight on jazz bandstands around here, and I don't see that changing, especially as there are now so many really good small/light combos..

I have the same thought about head and cab vs combo. Another box, another cable (different type). Something more to forget or fail.
And yet, many great players choose head and cab.

But, here is an anecdote about why it's hard to predict direction.

The two best tone nights I ever had:

1. Mesa Boogie Mark III with a Mesa Cab. Yamaha FX processor (years ago) with a sound I called "Metheny", even though it wasn't really. Just as close as I could get to it. Gibson L5S (that's a solid body with L5 trim). A guitarist came out of the audience and offered to buy my entire rig.

2. Club gig, gbd backing a vocalist. Club had a good PA and mic, so I mic'ed a Crate GFX15, which sold new for either $79 or $99 at GC. Can't recall the guitar. Might have been the L5S. Sound was to die for.

Another observation:

I heard a guy with a Fender D'Aquisto straight into a Twin that sound as good as anything I'd ever heard.

Then I heard another guy (our Forum mate Reg) sound as good or better with a completely different type of rig.

How do you extrapolate anything from data like that?

[EastwoodMike]

I disagree ,
I think you’re always gonna need
actual soundwaves in the actual air

(with wide dispersion )

the inside of the bose revolve+
speaker downward firing to a waveguide to give 360 deg coverage




Ive got one , it’s very good

So if I understand the concept right- the speaker is down firing, and a reflecting cone bounces the sound back up and towards the open "grill".

Is this vastly different in fundamental concept to a beam blocker? Granted the downward orientation allows for a full 360 reflection out and not forward/off the floor.

I wonder if one could knock up a 15" cube to house a 12" speaker downfacing, and a SS high wattage amp (think DV Mark/Quilter Mk3) above it. A Nice tube-pre could make it glorious! Could almost park it under your chair on the bandstage.
If you get creative in the shape of that reflective plane, it could almost be configured to be a 275 or 180 dispersion so you don't waste SPL energy going backwards.
Need to be careful of comb filtering though....

Getting off track now.

EMike.

[Jonathan0996]

For most players I know tubes are love, and solid state are tools, so that says a lot. Don't personally see much use for digital in jazz.

The simplicity and ease of having an amp onstage can't be beat, and jazz usually has low volumes, small stages and band members really close together. So I reckon amps will stay relevant.

[pcjazz]

In this context, and this very specific niche of the world, I don't think many guitarists are interested in head/cabinet set-ups.

Milkman pedal amp + Toob works for me.

[Spook410]

I disagree ,
I think you’re always gonna need
actual soundwaves in the actual air

Cool speaker. And disagreeing is good. I don't know what's going to happen. However, I will note that more and more music will be played in meta settings. Probably a few years out yet. But that won't be soundwaves / air.

In some ways feels like a discussion about vinyl as CD's took over. And then lossy MP3's. Yea.. vinyl is still best. And there may always be a market. Like tube amps as the supply of glass dwindles and great sounding, lightweight Class D amps proliferate. Speaker cabinets will adapt.

[EastwoodMike]

Cool speaker. And disagreeing is good. I don't know what's going to happen. However, I will note that more and more music will be played in meta settings. Probably a few years out yet. But that won't be soundwaves / air.

In some ways feels like a discussion about vinyl as CD's took over. And then lossy MP3's. Yea.. vinyl is still best. And there may always be a market. Like tube amps as the supply of glass dwindles and great sounding, lightweight Class D amps proliferate. Speaker cabinets will adapt.

Meta settings sounds like a live/ interactive / 'televised' event doesn't it. I agree we have no idea what will be the new norm in 20-30 years.
But I have to say there is something I love about that instant dynamic and organic tactile feedback of analogue physics.

But these are words from someone with a Fountain pen on his desk. A pen made brand new last year that is. (free plug to Edison Pens)
I love seeing the best of old world seamlessly adopted by the lastest tech.

Must be very expensive but I am guessing a good clean Full Voltage tube preamp into a properly designed high headroom class D Power section will nail it for me. And they are close to (large) Pedal-sized at that!
At least four established names are very close to this. Call me a nerd but it is exciting to see the evolution unfolding. I suspect though I am part of too small a market to cater to. Never know though: "Pedal platform amps" are down the right path at least.

EM.

[Spook410]

from someone with a Fountain pen on his desk..

EM.

Sitting here at a cold war era Steelcase desk with a Sailor 1911 in the drawer and a 25 year old Gibson 335 at hand. Of course I know the future.

[Gitterbug]

Thank you all once more for your contributions. Trying to summarize is hard, given the diversity of views and my low IQ when it comes to anything digital. What comes through, though, is a preference for an on-stage backline especially in small jazz ensembles.

Just a few picks: Spook’s dream rig looks like a cross between all things Swiss: army knife, watch-like precision and a cheese with all those holes for connectivity. Here’s someone who doesn’t put simplicity above everything. Some others think even a cable between an amp head and a cab is too complex. I have gigged with a separate head since 2016. Velcro-type amp docks make my cabs de facto combos. I don’t even consider the separate power unit of a Quilter SuperBlock as too much of a nuisance. OTOH, I’m only playing clean, so no added clutter from fx pedals that some folks just can’t have enough of.

While the trend towards smaller and lighter gear (i.e. Class D amps and smaller-caliber speakers) is recognized, even welcomed, tube amps still have their proponents. But the digital wind is not abating.

Pingu’s idea of a downward-firing guitar cab has been realized in Germany. From memory, the thing looks like an hourglass, weighs a ton and costs a fortune. If it weren’t standing on tall legs, it would address your ankles. Some of my cabs offer the upward firing option, which is even better for the band.

I raise a toast to a world of parallel universes serving different music genres and audiences. My cabs – 6.5”-12”, guitar, bass and FR - have found niches in all of them, but jazz is where it all started. At 75, I can only stick to the knitting as long as I can. And, who knows, there’s still a card or two up the sleeve.

Thanks and cheers!

Markku

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

[Gitterbug]

Vintage Fender Meta.

[entresz]

I'm really happy with my Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb. Initially I was very sceptical, as my experiences with modelling amps was not positive, however after 100+ gigs with it it's more than proven itself. The power scaling feature is particularly useful, most of the time I run it on the 5 watt setting so it compresses a little.

I also like the DV Mark Little Jazz and the Micro 60 head, they're extremely compact/practical, but nice warm/rich sounding amps. They work particularly nicely with carved top guitars with floating pickups. That type of guitar can get a little boomy through a Fender or similar. My only complaint is the strange reverb, but on lower settings its serviceable.

[EastwoodMike]

All this chat of vertically arranged speaker cabinets got me snooping around the interwebs.
Found this interesting one (a good DIY) made out of some cardboard tubular concrete formwork in a hardware store.

Reminded me of a trashcan.



8" driver with an adjustable lid to disperse the sound around the room.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Reminded me of a trashcan.

The trash can has been used to great advantage by some legendary guitarists.......

[Litterick]

Now is the time for the return of the Ampeg Johnny Smith JS 35 Fountain of Sound.

[entresz]

Now is the time for the return of the Ampeg Johnny Smith JS 35 Fountain of Sound.

I've always wanted to try one of these!

[EastwoodMike]

Looked up ‘wide dispersion guitar cabinet’ and stumbled upon this place:
Barefaced Reformer 112 guitar cab
– Barefaced Audio

Has a rear open baffle arrangement that is by design to act like a horn of sorts? Said to give a 3D sound without the beaming.
Pricy (especially to Australia)- about 30% more than an equivalent loaded cab from the UK or US. But the video on the family of Celestion speaker models is worth the visit to the site alone! Now I know what that copper back is all about.
m

[EastwoodMike]

[QUOTE=Litterick;1180654]Now is the time for the return of the Ampeg Johnny Smith JS 35 Fountain of Sound. [/

[Gitterbug]

Legs for playing upright are standard on Toob 12J and 10-12B, optional on Metro 6.5BG. Double bassists like them a lot, and some jazz guitarists call upright playing a revelation. I've used that position a lot for chunk-chunk swing comping, as well as in intimate venues.

[pingu]

Legs for playing upright are standard on Toob 12J and 10-12B, optional on Metro 6.5BG. Double bassists like them a lot, and some jazz guitarists call upright playing a revelation. I've used that position a lot for chunk-chunk swing comping, as well as in intimate venues.

hi Gitter , can you send a picture
of the metro in upright vertical position please ?

or a link ?

[Gitterbug]

hi Gitter , can you send a picture
of the metro in upright vertical position please ?

or a link ?

Jolly nice serve, Pingu! Attached a photo showing a Metro 6.5BG+ in upright position, and a Custom BG+ in Electric Blue Python Tolex, with the upright legs loose and their sockets evident in the back plate.

The SuperBlocks dock nicely lengthwise, i.e. with all controls facing the player when in horizontal position. The hook-and-loop strips have never failed; I'm using the quality that the drone guys have found the most reliable. (My son is a drone pro and a helluva shredder.)

Today I took the SBUK to band rehearsals instead of the SBUS. It did nice clean jazz on the middle Vox setting and with the knobs as in the photo.