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This is my Matsumoku-made Memphis L5 copy that I bought from 2bornot2bop a few years back. I really love the way this guitars sounds, but haven't been able to play it as much recently as I'd like. I went to play it today and noticed some greenish buildup on the pickup covers. See the pictures below. Is this from off-gassing? Is the likely culprit the pickguard? Or possibly some glue that was used in the construction of the guitar? I noticed that the binding on the pickguard has come loose in one place. There have been binding issues elsewhere (cracking) on this guitar since before I purchased it and I had Pete Moreno try to stabilize the worst of that a few years back. Aesthetically, I can deal with imperfections, but I want to help prevent any further damage: especially so that the guitar continues to function properly.
What is the best course of action going forward? Should I ditch the pickguard and get a new one? Should I ditch the case because it has the same toxic fumes in it now? Should I keep the guitar out of a case (I normally always put my guitars away in cases when not in use)? Is it safe to keep it out of the case and regularly breathe whatever it's letting off? This is not a good time for me to spend much of any money on repairs, so I'm hoping there is a reasonable, inexpensive route.
The following is much less important to me (than keeping the guitar from self-destructing), but is there a good way to clean off the pickup covers? Should I try to epoxy the binding back on to the pickguard (if it doesn't need to be disposed of)?
Thank you for your help!
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10-01-2021 08:38 PM
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I have a few of those but Greg would know better because it was his, I can't tell if that’s the orig guard. It's very possible it's starting to go as I see some corrosion on the frets adjacent.
I do see some of the typical binding rot these normally suffer from, especially in the cutaway.
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I had 20 guitars at the time I owned that guitar. I didn’t play it much. But seems to me that I upgraded the pick guard to a fancy one, and the present pick guard is plastic, IIRC.
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It does look like something is gassing out to me. If the pickguard is not celluloid anymore, then the most likely culprit is the binding I think? Keeping it out of the case definitely helps agains gassing out. I don’t think you’ll build up poisonous fumes in your house if you ventilate normally.
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I would not think out-gassing for that, it looks like oxidation. Certain alloys and chemical compounds will naturally change / lose integrity over time, think copper. You'll see that green on some old heavy machinery also. It's likely just the plating on those pieces. You can likely clean it up with a scotch pad. As for prevention, you could try a little 3 in 1 oil, or "cat" oil - very little - put a bit on an absorbent cloth and just brush / dab the area. ...for that matter, a little Formula 409 might do the trick - petroleulm based. You can't necessarily stop the process, just keep a scotch pad handy and hit the areas when they appear.
-best,
Mike
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Compounds such as nitric oxide produced as celluloid degrades are potent oxidizers.
Originally Posted by mjo
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This to me is gassing of the binding based on what I can see in the cutaway. The pickguard maybe be doing this too you need to check and if any trace of off gassing get it off immediately and replace with a like L5 pickguard you can get them on ebay cheaper than I can make you one. However I also think the binding may be gassing much more and that is the real issue that has not a lot of hope. If it is the binding then it will be way too expensive to repair as replacing binding is major league stuff and guitar even though nice would not be worth the real cost. See my other threads I have explained what this process is.
So if that is the case then you basically have to live with it and it will get worse. Sometimes it slows down and will not get much worse but over the years it will just keep rotting. If this were me and my guitar I would I would sell it on ebay with full disclosure of what is going on a present it as a luthier project. Many small time repairmen take these projects on for a low price on the guitar. I don't know what you paid or potentially what the guitar is worth but unless you can rebind the guitar yourself sell it. Possibly you just live with it too not a bad thing the guitar will still play fine.
So if I owned this guitar as a repairman it is a good guitar and the hardware and tailpiece and general construction is great. I would strip rebind the guitar and strip the finish. Then I would refinish it in a blond no sunburst as that is much less work. With the all the finish and hardware off the guitar rebinding it would not be nearly as difficult. Then a simply blond finish. To do this I would need to get the guitar cheap. When done it would not be worth much but nice.
I bet this post seems pretty drastic but when it comes to off gassing that can be actually dangerous and flammable even. It just make a mess.
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No, it’s definitely not the pick guard off gassing. Looking at that pick guard again, the fancy swirl in it jogged my memory. Observe the pick guard cutaway and how it’s too wide at the top. That was one I had cut out by a luthier. He didn’t cut out the cutaway properly. I was disappointed because I’d taken a brand new clean pick guard to him and he butchered the pick guard cut out!
I bought that pick guard brand new off eBay but never used it. So essentially the pick guard is relatively new. I’m guessing it’s something in the original case that’s doing that, or the binding. Mostly all, not every, one of these guitars lose their binding. I’d keep it out of the case after the guitar is cleaned to see if the guitar improves.
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"I’m guessing it’s something in the original case that’s doing that, or the binding."
I've had old guitars where the guard offgassed and burned the case lining and wood and the fumes remain. Even after replacing the guard the strings would corrode in the pickguard area because they were next to the burn spot w the case closed. Some cases that have the burn spot don't pose this problem but some do.
That reddish gunk on the frets next to the cutaway isn't oxidation, it's the result of offgassing for sure, seen it many many times
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Same here. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Thank you for your help, everyone! I really appreciate your input, and would be grateful to hear any further thoughts you have. Here’s where I currently stand.
I'm inclined to keep the guitar because the enjoyment I'll get from playing it will likely be worth more than its monetary value. However, I guess I have to proceed cautiously, since a few of these posts are a little alarming. I'm considering throwing out the case, putting up a guitar wall mount, and hanging the guitar in the bedroom where I keep my guitars. I’m not sure about putting the pickguard back on. However, with my 3 year old daughter's bedroom being right next door to this room, I want to be as certain as possible that this is safe from an air quality standpoint.
I am also thinking that I will do my best to clean up the current corrosion on the guitar. After reading other threads, I'm considering soaking some of the screws in WD40 to clean them up, and maybe using some Nevr Dull polish I have to try to clean up the pickup covers, bridge, and frets.
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I wouldn't ditch the case just yet.
Hit the frets w some 0000 steel wool (cover the pickups w a cloth, you don't want any pieces of steel getting in there) or use a fine scotch Brite pad.
If you have another case it'll fit in put it in there after you clean everything up and see if the corrosion comes back, this will let you know if it's the case that’s the culprit or a component of the guitar, process of elimination etc.
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I’ve never known a brand new pick guard to begin deteriorating. Perhaps a 30 year old one.
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The celluloid binding is degrading, and likely outgassing, which will cause the metal corrosion. Best to leave the guitar out of the case.
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Yep! Originally Posted by daverepair
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I just had to stop back and thank you guys ! I looked up nitric oxide and the whole situation, many stories of this out there.
I'd honestly never heard of this with guitars. One of the accounts mentioned nitrocellulose, I assume this is different from the nitrocel-laquer used for some finishes ??
-best,
Mike
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So I just sat down to start cleaning this guitar up, and I noticed something that was interesting to me. I couldn't find a single crack anywhere on the binding along the backside of the guitar: only the top binding is affected. The worst of the biding cracking along the top is that within closest proximity to the pickguard area too. Also, the corrosion on the metal all seems to fall within a certain radius of the pickguard. I am wondering if this lends further credence to the idea that the old pickguard (the one before Greg put a new one on maybe 6 or 7 years ago) is the culprit that started this process: and maybe the binding started deteriorating due to that pickguard's off-gassing? I haven't noticed much change in the binding (any more cracking) over the past 5 or so years since I've owned it. However, the green corrosion on the metal is new. Maybe I'm missing something, but this got be thinking further about things.
Anyone else have opinions or, better yet, knowledge of the involved chemistry about the gasses that will be let off into that room of my house if I leave that guitar hanging on a wall mount? I'm still a little concerned about that.
Thanks again!!!
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I have 3 of these PE180s as well as a PE190 Robert Conti (same guitar but w floating pickup)
2 have the orig guards that are warped but not offgassing. They both have cracked binding in the cutaway. Sometimes on old guitars w binding issues it's not necessarily bad binding (as was the case w circa late 40s-mid 50s D'angelico's and some late 70s-80s Daquistos) but rather a reaction of the glue used to attach the binding (a problem w old Gretschs) There's more binding and glue in the cutaway than anywhere else on the guitar and it's a sharp stressful bend there so it's probaby more likely to crack there, especially since a lot of Japanese guitars' binding is known to crack. There's a very slight possibility that the new guard is the culprit, I've seen modern Gibsons less than 10 yrs old w shot guards, though that seems less likely, you'll usually see foggy areas and sweating of bad celluloid on a bad one, that guard Greg installed appears ok in the pics. Take the guard off and take a look at the underside just to check. It's possible that the previous bad guard has transferred fumes to that area of the binding and is accelerating things or into the case lid as I mentioned before.
I wouldn't make a judgment until you clean it up and observe the metal parts in the guard area after it's been left out of the case for a few weeks. As I said before that'll at least narrow things down.
The guitar on a wall won't harm you but I wouldn't leave one out w a bad guard on it.Last edited by wintermoon; 10-07-2021 at 01:49 AM.
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