PSA - Gibson To Revive Archtop (and Mandolin) Production

[jzucker]

The death of the guitar and even the archtop guitar has not happened yet and probably will never happen. Fashions come and go and come back again.

Look at today's young lions of jazz. Guys like Dan Wilson, julian lage, Yotam Silberstein, Adam Rogers, Mike Moreno, Kevin Clarke, etc. All of them are playing thinlines or solidbodies. "old timers" Pat Martino, Rodney Jones, Paul Bollenback, Randy Johnston, Paul Pieper are playing semihollows. Most of the guitarists I've heard playing jazz in NYC are playing thinner guitars. Of course, guys like Peter Bernstein, Peter Mazza, Pasquale Grasso are playing full archtops but it's the younger guys who will carry on the tradition and many (most???) are not playing full archtops. Even among the archtop players in NYC, most of them are not playing Gibsons...

So I'm not so sure the gibson tradition will carry on...

[Spook410]

...

Prognosticating the future of Gibson archtops is a fools errand...

Yep. Of course, wouldn't be the first such errand most of us have taken on.

[jzucker]

Why do Gibsons sound better than other guitars like the Benedettos, Eastmans etc?

Cause they sound like our hero's from back when ... But the thing is that most archtop hero's are long dead and so that memory fades and if I'm to guess that memory is getting replaced by the heroic sounds that come from a semi-hollow.


And so what .. It's still a guitar .. Still sounds good ... Many of my favorite players play 335 types of guitar ... and plenty of those are still being made.


I'm sure Gibson will reintroduce archtops again, but we're probably not going to get the lineup and prices of yesteryear ... Oh well ... No big deal. There are plenty of used guitars and since as SS said, most of us are in the +50 segment I'm sure we won't run out of used guitars

Unfortunately for us +50, +60 buyers, gibson's strategy of the used market having a correction in the "+" direction succeeded!. Two years ago, there were tons of 175s for $2k. Not anymore. Those guitars are being advertised at $4.5k now

[deacon Mark]

Age has much to do with our needs and what we do with guitars. In my case I never made my living playing or teaching except a brief period during my last 2 years in college and a year later. If I was a working musician I would probably stick to an archtop guitar that was traditional and mostly look for one that I knew would get and hit the road. Buying a used L5 in 1980 and then playing it daily for gigs and such would be reasonable and if things happen well get them fixed. At some point guitars might need to be refinish if heavy use and certainly the neck wear. Buy a top quality road worth case and live with the decision.

That would also mean that my prize D'angelico's will be played at home. Not that I might take them out on occasion but just not subject to all the forces of daily playing guitar. Now fast forward and like many I am 60. I don't gig at all and don't even teach anymore. I try to listen to jazz and stay somewhat current but I don't care about going out to clubs or making sure I get to every concert in the near area. I did when I was 20-35 but not now. Life has changed I like to be at home in the evening and I get up with the Monks at 4 am. Not the style of life of younger jazz guitarist up and coming or out on the move.

Like wise my guitar requirements have not changed, but I buy I guitar now because I can sit a home and enjoy playing them whenever I want. I play what I want and have fun. As for the Gibson archtops I feel so blessed to have them and just play them acoustically as they are generally. I don't even plug in that much at home I am too lazy. I have a feeling that I am not the only person who is in this situation. I gave up trying to be a super great player who could play and get some recognition. In my case it is the lack of true talent. I am not a bad player and all but in the grand scheme of jazz guitar I am hack.

Being a hack gives you at least the freedom to possible play only what you want and can do well and play the guitar you always wanted. I cannot play a lick of country western music or really even much rock. I don't practice it and my technique does not fit those styles too well. Likewise though having a profession I can afford to play the guitar that really hits my heart. So for me it is going to be something along the lines of a Gibson L5 or Super 400. If I did not own one right now I would try and find one. I might even consider ponying up the money and buying brand new one if they made them. The amount of time I have left on the earth shrinks daily much quicker at 60 than 30. I say if always wanted a nice top of line archtop buy one! The days are getting shorter regardless of the money.

I don't need a bigger house and probably smaller for sure. I don't care about cars I just need reliable transportation. I never eat out but buy good food and of course good beer. I don't have a desire to travel much any more because that would be by myself not as fun. However, I can sit down and play the guitar anytime I want and nothing wrong with a Gibson L 50 or a L7. But as long as I can why not play an L5, Campellone, or Trenier, because it just is in my blood.

I not sure what this means for Gibson coming back with making the big archtops but I don't think I am an isolated case. My friend up the street in the same shoes as me has a Barker Guitar, 2 Hollenbecks, and just bought a wonderful Gibson Citation I made an ebony saddle for. He plays bass in a Church band but is a guitarist. One you get the archtop bug in your blood it is really difficult to get rid of it. Gibson has the archtop bug so I hope they figure a way to get it done. Paying 15k$ for an L5 sounds pretty steep but really cheap compared to a car that is worthless pretty soon. A top quality road bike with the best stuff easily will go $4-7k and your are going to ride those puppies on all types of bad roads, in the rain, and wear things out. You might need a new one if you crash or wears out, it can happen.

[Archie]

I think the majority of the active users of this forum (me included) are men over 50. Our needs/wants are very different from those who are younger.

Here are some of my thoughts:

The death of the guitar and even the archtop guitar has not happened yet and probably will never happen. Fashions come and go and come back again.

Cheap guitars made in Asian countries may still be driving the market, but that too will come to an end. Guitars made in China cost way more today than they did just a year ago.

Desirable/traditional tonewoods are becoming scarce.

I foresee a market for archtop guitars existing beyon the lifetime of all who read this post today. I think iconic archtops like many made by Gibson will remain in high demand for many years to come. The demand will exceed supply of extant Gibson archtops and there will be a market for new ones. The current owners of the Gibson brand are not stupid nor are their top managers. They will bring archtops to the market in due time using the tonewoods we all want. The price point will anger many and the quality will remain an unknown.

Prognosticating the future of Gibson archtops is a fools errand. A year or two ago, many here were predicting a fall in archtop prices based on buying demographics. The opposite has happened.

When it come to buying an asset that has high demand, the old adage "the best time to plant a tree is yesterday" applies.

There are without doubt vast amounts of Archtops coming onto the market over the next 20 years. It is up for debate though whether they will come onto a market that finds guitar players, or hedge funds and institutions.
Archtops are getting old, like really old.
If those Archtops come on the open market, that will deal a body blow to current Gibson, as they are the guitars that people who buy Gibson now, really want. It won't end the brand, Gibson the name and trademarks will always have value.

The archtop will never die. Neither will the banjo or lapsteel but it does seem to be going out of fashion.
Boomers and late Gen X have been the ones keeping that market viable.

You're absolutely right about it being a fools errand to guess what will happen but it's fun to muse over.

[Doctor Jeff]

i don't know who the target audience is for that. I think most of the guitar companies have serious marketing issues. At least gibson keeps the Epiphone line to distinguish their brand but ibanez and seventy seven have polluted their model lineups with cheap copies of their instruments that have virtually the same model names as the expensive japanese lines. If you go search for a GB10 now, there are korean, chinese and japanese ones with the sellers often deliberately obfuscating which ones they are selling. That seems to me like a marketing disaster. I have the feeling that covid is going to provide cover for a big marketing shakeup/correction among all these guitar companies...

I am frustrated by the "brand dilution" as it were, but I think right this moment demand for all guitars, archtops included, is extremely high. Just like cars--tried to buy one recently??

Guitar Sales Statistics (2021) - Most Recent Guitar Industry Data!

Just as Ford could sell anything with a bed and 4 wheels right now, I think the guitar companies could sell decent guitars at all pricepoints in the current hobby-oriented environment. I bet if Gibson had been producing 175s for instance both Gibson brand and Epiphone, they would have sold out of them in the last 2 years. Obviously the used price reflects this.

I think the majority of the active users of this forum (me included) are men over 50. Our needs/wants are very different from those who are younger.

Here are some of my thoughts:

The death of the guitar and even the archtop guitar has not happened yet and probably will never happen. Fashions come and go and come back again.

Cheap guitars made in Asian countries may still be driving the market, but that too will come to an end. Guitars made in China cost way more today than they did just a year ago.

Desirable/traditional tonewoods are becoming scarce.

I foresee a market for archtop guitars existing beyond the lifetime of all who read this post today. I think iconic archtops like many made by Gibson will remain in high demand for many years to come. The demand will exceed supply of extant Gibson archtops and there will be a market for new ones. The current owners of the Gibson brand are not stupid nor are their top managers. They will bring archtops to the market in due time using the tonewoods we all want. The price point will anger many and the quality will remain an unknown.

Prognosticating the future of Gibson archtops is a fools errand. A year or two ago, many here were predicting a fall in archtop prices based on buying demographics. The opposite has happened.

When it come to buying an asset that has high demand, the old adage "the best time to plant a tree is yesterday" applies.

Mostly agree--whether the current Gibson owners are any better at running the company remains to be seen. Though of course I hope they do succeed.

What is discouraging to use your analogy is that Gibson had archtop trees planted and failed to manage them--add nutrients to the soil, prune and water it properly. Think about it--the 175 in continuous production for 68 years, then dropped. It is very hard to get that going again.

[Doctor Jeff]

3rd question: if you think Gibson is going to get back into archtop production significantly in 2023, what do you think those luthiers who are going to make them are doing in the interim? Running CNC machines to make LPs? Flattops?

Why do they have to wait until 2023? If the demand is there and the skills are there, why not 2022?

[Donplaysguitar]

I think one could argue that bad investments in non-guitar areas doomed Gibson, not the guitar biz itself.

Yes, that's documented. The guitar biz was healthy, ironically.

[jzucker]

Jack, if you want to give Gibson credit for predicting that a global epidemic would cause tons of first-world guitarists to be stuck at home for months with internet service and disposable income, I defer to you on the point.

They didn't predict the pandemic because the pandemic isn't what made the prices go up on gibson archtops. The prices went up because gibson filed bankruptcy and stopped making archtops.

[Donplaysguitar]

I'm not worried about "working musicians" not being able to afford a 175 or L5.

• Are we saying working jazz musicians? (if not, who cares?)
• Are we saying there are working jazz musicians who earn their living by playing alone - AND - they're doing that playing GASB and straightahead stuff like Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery? If not, who cares? They don't need those guitars. And if so, what do they earn per year $2,000 or something?
• Wes was a factory worker and he managed to get one and had 6 kids or whatever.
• I managed to get one and was not even out of college.

My guess is, we can all get the guitar we really need, unless we're broke or something. Getting what we want is something else entirely.

[Donplaysguitar]

They didn't predict the pandemic because the pandemic isn't what made the prices go up on gibson archtops. The prices went up because gibson filed bankruptcy and stopped making archtops.

But they emerged from bankruptcy and started making them for awhile, too.

[jzucker]

I'm not worried about "working musicians" not being able to afford a 175 or L5.

• Are we saying working jazz musicians? (if not, who cares?)
• Are we saying there are working jazz musicians who earn their living by playing alone - AND - they're doing that playing GASB and straightahead stuff like Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery? If not, who cares? They don't need those guitars. And if so, what do they earn per year $2,000 or something?
• Wes was a factory worker and he managed to get one and had 6 kids or whatever.
• I managed to get one and was not even out of college.

My guess is, we can all get the guitar we really need, unless we're broke or something. Getting what we want is something else entirely.

• Wes didn't have an L5 until he was famous and gibson gave him one.
• Few jazz guitarists in NYC are using gibson archtops
• L5s are $12k now. Are you telling me a college jazz student can afford a $12k archtop?!? Sorry, but not unless they are trust-funded

But it's a moot point because the young jazz guitarists of today are using solidbodies or semihollows and gibson no longer rules the roost so it's ok.

[jzucker]

But they emerged from bankruptcy and started making them for awhile, too.

Point me to a 2020 175 or L5

[Archie]

Look at today's young lions of jazz. Guys like Dan Wilson, julian lage, Yotam Silberstein, Adam Rogers, Mike Moreno, Kevin Clarke, etc. All of them are playing thinlines or solidbodies. "old timers" Pat Martino, Rodney Jones, Paul Bollenback, Randy Johnston, Paul Pieper are playing semihollows. Most of the guitarists I've heard playing jazz in NYC are playing thinner guitars. Of course, guys like Peter Bernstein, Peter Mazza, Pasquale Grasso are playing full archtops but it's the younger guys who will carry on the tradition and many (most???) are not playing full archtops. Even among the archtop players in NYC, most of them are not playing Gibsons...

So I'm not so sure the gibson tradition will carry on...

Can't remember if I said this earlier but I found a somewhat arbitrary list of the top 10 most current and exciting jazz guitarists.
2 out of 10 play a Gibson. The majority had played one at some point but the overwhelming majority currently don't.
Some of them like playing older styled Archtops but don't seem to need the Gibson association, or perhaps don't want it.

[jzucker]

Can't remember if I said this earlier but I found a somewhat arbitrary list of the top 10 most current and exciting jazz guitarists.
2 out of 10 play a Gibson. The majority had played one at some point but the overwhelming majority currently don't.
some of them like playing older styled Archtops but seem to need the Gibson association, or perhaps don't want it.

look at the list I have in my post. I think 1 of them plays a gibson and most don't play archtops at all.

[jads57]

Well when tools become objects of status and desire! Then the prices are in accordance especially with so many marketing people trying to justify their jobs, Lol!

Whats really funny is the collectors market since people don’t even play these instruments. The good thing is that Gibson is making great guitars in their Original lineup again. But I agree things have become over priced in general. My advice is buy used and forget brand identity if you are a musician.

[Archie]

Btw congrats to the OP for such a great thread.

You know it's a good thread when you pop out to the main 'topic' page and it's completely changed.

[bluejaybill]

Look at today's young lions of jazz. Guys like Dan Wilson, julian lage, Yotam Silberstein, Adam Rogers, Mike Moreno, Kevin Clarke, etc. All of them are playing thinlines or solidbodies. "old timers" Pat Martino, Rodney Jones, Paul Bollenback, Randy Johnston, Paul Pieper are playing semihollows. Most of the guitarists I've heard playing jazz in NYC are playing thinner guitars. Of course, guys like Peter Bernstein, Peter Mazza, Pasquale Grasso are playing full archtops but it's the younger guys who will carry on the tradition and many (most???) are not playing full archtops. Even among the archtop players in NYC, most of them are not playing Gibsons...

So I'm not so sure the gibson tradition will carry on...

Back when I was still a gigging for income player, an archtop was not versatile enough to handle the gigs that were coming my way. Fortunately I had a great semi hollow (a '60 ES345) that also sounded great for jazzier things. I now have a laminate arch top that I believe would be feedback resistant enough for jazz gigs, but still not versatile enough for funkier things. So in that sense I think that arch tops have become a niche thing for jazz-only players like those listed above.

I feel differently about acoustic arch tops, which are great for playing at home and recording. I think they will continue, but they probably will only be made by custom builders. I love mine, but it is certainly a luxury to be able to have a guitar that serves only that purpose, and that I would be unlikely to bring out to any but very specific gigs if I was working. Most working players can't afford to do that.

[Cunamara]

They didn't predict the pandemic because the pandemic isn't what made the prices go up on gibson archtops. The prices went up because gibson filed bankruptcy and stopped making archtops.

Prices are frequently driven by the impression of scarcity rather than by actual scarcity, particularly for luxury items like archtop guitars.

[jzucker]

Back when I was still a gigging for income player, an archtop was not versatile enough to handle the gigs that were coming my way. Fortunately I had a great semi hollow (a '60 ES345) that also sounded great for jazzier things. I now have a laminate arch top that I believe would be feedback resistant enough for jazz gigs, but still not versatile enough for funkier things. So in that sense I think that arch tops have become a niche thing for jazz-only players like those listed above.

I feel differently about acoustic arch tops, which are great for playing at home and recording. I think they will continue, but they probably will only be made by custom builders. I love mine, but it is certainly a luxury to be able to have a guitar that serves only that purpose, and that I would be unlikely to bring out to any but very specific gigs if I was working. Most working players can't afford to do that.

I agree. Jazz has continued to evolve incorporating electric instruments, bigger drum kits, etc. Even hard core jazz guitarists who rarely or ever play funk or rock like bollenback, rodney jones, dan wilson, randy johnston are playing semihollows because the music is louder and they don't want to deal with feedback. Kreisberg still gets away with playing loud with his 175. The 175 is one of the few archtops that resists feedback.

[Stringswinger]

I'm not worried about "working musicians" not being able to afford a 175 or L5.

• Are we saying working jazz musicians? (if not, who cares?)
• Are we saying there are working jazz musicians who earn their living by playing alone - AND - they're doing that playing GASB and straightahead stuff like Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery? If not, who cares? They don't need those guitars. And if so, what do they earn per year $2,000 or something?
• Wes was a factory worker and he managed to get one and had 6 kids or whatever.
• I managed to get one and was not even out of college.

My guess is, we can all get the guitar we really need, unless we're broke or something. Getting what we want is something else entirely.

I make a lot more than 2K a year playing nothing but jazz guitar. As do others that I know. Jazz isn’t dead it just smells funny.

[Donplaysguitar]

• Wes didn't have an L5 until he was famous and gibson gave him one.
• Few jazz guitarists in NYC are using gibson archtops
• L5s are $12k now. Are you telling me a college jazz student can afford a $12k archtop?!? Sorry, but not unless they are trust-funded

But it's a moot point because the young jazz guitarists of today are using solidbodies or semihollows and gibson no longer rules the roost so it's ok.

• That's not what I read about Wes. I read that he bought it before he was "discovered". Oh well.
• The guitarists in NYC are OK with that, right? If so, what's the rumpus? Lots of guys are playing ambient or distortion or all kinds of other signal processed sounds. NOT like Joe or Wes. So who needs a dreamboat archtop?
• L5s in sunburst are less though, right? And that Gibson retail price is one that we always have paid only 75-80% of, right?
• Depends on the college kid. I realize that lots of college kids today don't work like we did. I started working when I was 10. I was a disciplined saver. Bought my own motorcycle at 12. Bought an ES-335 TDW and new Twin Reverb when I was 15. When I was 21 I bought that L5, an L6 and a classical.

But I agree it's moot. The 1950s and 1960s are gone.

[Donplaysguitar]

Point me to a 2020 175 or L5

I probably can't do that but we have hashed and rehashed the "they're not making them anymore" thing here on the forum, only to discover that they WERE in fact making them, sort of on the down low.

BTW - How much of this do we think is related to Covid? After all, homebuilders continue to have trouble getting wood and it hasn't been because of a lack of trees, but because of a reduction in factory workers.

[Donplaysguitar]

Yeah ... Just skip a few latte's and they will have that $12,000 L5 in no time


Given how succesfull you are, it really amazes me that you have nothing better to do than be on jazzguitar.be?

I never said I was successful. Just a hard working man. Covid times provide me with tons of time though. No traffic jams, haven’t been to a restaurant since March 2020, etc. saved a ton of money, but it’s getting old. Would love for this shit to end.

and yeah I love jazz guitar and music. I was a music major, am a patron of the arts etc. I’m an enthusiast for sure.

[deacon Mark]

I bought my first D’angelico excel at the age of 18 in college. Saved up money from summer jobs borrowed $500 from my grandfather. He drove to Gruhn s in February 1980 and I came home with a blond 1953 non cut excel. So far since then I have not been without a D’a to play.

Could well have been a Super 400 they were cheaper but I had my mind set. If you want play you got to pay something.