Gretsch's 7 String George Van Eps Model

[Saxophone Tall]

I’ve never seen an 8 archtop.

They may not exist! My giant Strat (8 to 6) is 2.125" nut, 2 3/4" E to E @ bridge - 72 mm). A 7 string would only be 60-61 mm @ bridge. So the goal is to get the "Goldilocks" fan @ the bridge - is 61 mm OK for me? Is 72 mm better? I'm new to guitar, so I don't know yet. (50 years on sax & piano).

(even in my long thin hands - I wear an 8 1/2 or 9 glove and the nuts on almost all of my current guitars are 2” or more).

What's your reach on a piano? Mine is C to A (a 15th). Can you palm a regulation basketball? I can, easily.

If the goal is to convert a 7 into a wide neck 6, you may be best off looking for a damaged or heavily played Eastman etc. I’ve been watching for a decent El Rey 7 for a few years, so I see a lot of 7s on the usual sales boards and an occasional fixer-upper comes along. If you can get it for the right price, a total refurb with 6 string nut, bridge & tailpiece may still keep the total cost below a new one for which you’d still need a new nut, bridge and t’piece plus a luthier if you can’t do it yourself..

El Rey? I'll Google; thanks.

Good idea on the fixer upper!

I'm trying to avoid the luthier time (1 year) and expense (4K+). NO WAY I could do it myself, but the cat in England who did my Strat could, as could probably any luthier.

Another option for a decent jazz box with a wide nut/neck is a semi-hollow 12 string you could convert to 6.

Well, I've never seen one of these, either. Know of any? What would the nut and E to E @ bridge measurements be? Bigger, the same or smaller than the 7 string? For me, I think I'd *like* bigger than the 7 string would provide.

Thanks for your input!

- Jeff

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

They may not exist! My giant Strat (8 to 6) is 2.125" nut, 2 3/4" E to E @ bridge - 72 mm). A 7 string would only be 60-61 mm @ bridge. So the goal is to get the "Goldilocks" fan @ the bridge - is 61 mm OK for me? Is 72 mm better? I'm new to guitar, so I don't know yet. (50 years on sax & piano).

What's your reach on a piano? Mine is C to A (a 15th). Can you palm a regulation basketball? I can, easily.

El Rey? I'll Google; thanks.

Good idea on the fixer upper!

I'm trying to avoid the luthier time (1 year) and expense (4K+). NO WAY I could do it myself, but the cat in England who did my Strat could, as could probably any luthier.

Well, I've never seen one of these, either. Know of any? What would the nut and E to E @ bridge measurements be? Bigger, the same or smaller than the 7 string? For me, I think I'd *like* bigger than the 7 string would provide.

Thanks for your input!

- Jeff

There’s no such thing as “the best” - it’s purely preference. Wider is generally better for fingerstyle playing, but only you can know what parameters work and feel best for you.

I never tried to palm a b’ball - I can play C to E comfortably for stride left hand. I can reach to F but not comfortably enough to incorporate it into my playing.

The Eastman El Rey is a smaller guitar, hollow but more like a Benny than a full archtop in size and shape. I suspect (but don’t know for sure) that the nut on an El Rey 7 is under 2”. It’s almost certainly not what you want. I wanted one for blues and commercial gigs, but I couldn’t find a decent one. So I bought a Matt Raines Tele7 for that and love it.

There have been many 335-style 12 strings over the years, from Gibson on down to box store house brands. They’re all laminated tops, so feedback isn’t an issue. Set up with flat wound strings and decent humbuckers, the better ones sound a lot like a 175 when amplified. I’ve played a few that were converted to 6s and one converted to a 7 - it’s a very nice way to get a wide neck 6 with enough string spacing for aggressive playing (walking bass line, Chet Atkins style,Tuck Andress etc).

[Saxophone Tall]

There’s no such thing as “the best” - it’s purely preference. Wider is generally better for fingerstyle playing, but only you can know what parameters work and feel best for you.

Agreed. Still experimenting. So far, I like the 72 mm @ bridge, but that's 8 string territory.

I never tried to palm a b’ball - I can play C to E comfortably for stride left hand. I can reach to F but not comfortably enough to incorporate it into my playing.

I can walk 12ths. So, you have big hands and good reach. Mine are larger. I can reach an octave with just thumb and forefinger. But ODDLY ENOUGH, on guitar, I do NOT have "Spock Vulcan" stretch! So as big as my hands are (and why I need VERTICAL bigness), they don't stretch LENGTHWISE (up and down frets) like a "real" guitarist's do. This blew my mind when I first realized it!

So, even though my giant Strat is 25.5 Fender scale, I'd prefer 24.75 Gibson (or 25 PRS) scale for an archtop (Jazz voicings).

I'm totally new to guitar and don't know all the lingo yet.

So I bought a Matt Raines Tele7 for that and love it.

I emailed him. Do you still have it? What are the nut and E to E @ bridge measurements? These are Chinese, but good quality? I see he upped the price from $500 to $1200... I saw his uTube video; looks interesting!

There have been many 335-style 12 strings over the years, from Gibson on down to box store house brands. They’re all laminated tops, so feedback isn’t an issue. Set up with flat wound strings and decent humbuckers, the better ones sound a lot like a 175 when amplified. I’ve played a few that were converted to 6s and one converted to a 7 - it’s a very nice way to get a wide neck 6 with enough string spacing for aggressive playing (walking bass line, Chet Atkins style,Tuck Andress etc).

The ones I see (just started looking) are less than 2" nut (a lot less). Can you point me to one with a 2" or better nut? Which do you think is wider - 7 string or 12 string?

Thanks...

... Jeff

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I absolutely love my Raines Tele7. Being made in China is not a bad thing, although I much prefer to buy American when that’s a viable option. Matt and his luthier partner Chris Forshage designed & spec’d it, and they contracted it to a fine shop. Mine is very well made. With a Duncan Benedetto style ‘bucker at the neck, it does a truly great Ed Bickert imitation . I use it on jazz gigs too, and it’s perfect - high quality, good parts, low cost, great sound and feel, and perfect dimensions for me.

Having said that, there are no more MIC Tele7s because he’s moved production to Austin. I gather from this that the business climate in China is nowhere near as favorable now for small businesses as it was even a few years ago. Chris Forshage is now making the Raines Tele style guitars, and they’re gorgeous - but they cost significantly more. Of course, Chris is a world class luthier, so he can make you anything you want.......but at commensurate cost for a custom guitar. Both Matt and Chris are great guys who stand behind their products and their word - I’ve know Matt for about 20 years. He’s also a great player.

Sorry, but I don’t remember the nut and neck sizes of the original 335-12 or its clones. A search like yours takes a lot of time, persistence, and patience before you find what you want. You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find the one that turns into a princess.

[Saxophone Tall]

I absolutely love my Raines Tele7 ... Matt and his luthier partner Chris Forshage designed & spec’d it, and they contracted it to a fine shop. Mine is very well made ... I use it on jazz gigs too, and it’s perfect - high quality, good parts, low cost, great sound and feel, and perfect dimensions for me.

1. Are all Raines guitars now made in Austin and not China? 2. I may get a Tele style in the future. Mike Stern uses one for Jazz ("high energy"; loud as heck @ 55 Bar in NYC; he said he'd let me sit in [on sax] and now that I'm back East from my 15 month "Covid Vacation" in La La Land, I'll do that once NYC is safe for me). My current quest is for 175 > 335 > Tele or LP in "wide neck." 3. Did you convert it to 6 string?

IHaving said that, there are no more MIC Tele7s because he’s moved production to Austin. I gather from this that the business climate in China is nowhere near as favorable now for small businesses as it was even a few years ago. Chris Forshage is now making the Raines Tele style guitars, and they’re gorgeous - but they cost significantly more. Of course, Chris is a world class luthier, so he can make you anything you want.......but at commensurate cost for a custom guitar. Both Matt and Chris are great guys who stand behind their products and their word - I’ve know Matt for about 20 years. He’s also a great player.

1. He sound great on the videos. They offer "custom" @ 4K and up. But what about "production" models? Made by Chris Forshage? The "LA-7" was $500; it's now $1200. I am happy to pay that, since the forerunner is the Eastman 7 string (810 something); $3.2 ~ 3.5K.

Sorry, but I don’t remember the nut and neck sizes of the original 335-12 or its clones. A search like yours takes a lot of time, persistence, and patience before you find what you want. You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find the one that turns into a princess.

You've got that right!

- Jeff

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

1. Are all Raines guitars now made in Austin and not China? 2. I may get a Tele style in the future. Mike Stern uses one for Jazz ("high energy"; loud as heck @ 55 Bar in NYC; he said he'd let me sit in [on sax] and now that I'm back East from my 15 month "Covid Vacation" in La La Land, I'll do that once NYC is safe for me). My current quest is for 175 > 335 > Tele or LP in "wide neck." 3. Did you convert it to 6 string? He sound great on the videos. They offer "custom" @ 4K and up. But what about "production" models? Made by Chris Forshage? The "LA-7" was $500; it's now $1200. I am happy to pay that, since the forerunner is the Eastman 7 string (810 something); $3.2 ~ 3.5K.

I don't know where Matt's production guitars are being made right now, except that the new version of my Tele7 (called the Estacado) is made in Austin by Chris at the moment and is not yet a "production model". At least right now, each one is completely handmade to a very high standard. I'm pretty sure that the LA models have all been made in China for as long as I've known about them. Things change rapidly regarding Chinese sources right now, especially with the recent tariffs plus less than great relations between our countries. So a price rise is not surprising, and even at $1200 they're great value. Matt's production models were all designed and built for working guitarists, with no frills and as little as possible to break or otherwise waste our time and money.

I've been playing 7 string exclusively for over 25 years. I sold all my 6s by 1995, except for my beloved oddities (e.g. National Tricone, Kubicki Express, Supro lap steel - all original in grey Mother of Toilet Seat with a DeArmond changer tailpiece). I got on the Tele wagon for jazz and commercial gigs back in the late 1960's when I had to buy a solid body and suitable amp for rock tunes at weddings etc. I was playing for the top local society band office at the time, and the leaders weren't happy with my L5 for the music brides, grooms, and guests wanted to hear and dance to (especially through my Ampeg B-15, which is no Marshall but remains one of my favorite amps for solo jazz guitar - especially a 7). So I bought a Tele Custom with 'bucker and used it for years as my second guitar, along with a Kustom 150 amp cheesily covered in black roll & tuck naugahyde. I discovered quickly that a Tele with a humbucker was an excellent jazz guitar and well suited to all kinds of gigs - so I've had at least one ever since.

When I first went to 7 for all gigs, there were no 7 string Teles of any kind, and the custom Strat 7 had the extra string on top. So I had a Carvin 727 made, picked it up at the factory in 1994, and still have it. The original Carvins are wonderful guitars, although I've not played any made since the father died. The company has clearly changed, e.g. the "custom shop" that made my guitar will no longer do any work at all on their own custom guitars! And their prices have gotten way out of hand. So I got the Raines to use on 99% of my gigs, and it's great.

Chris Forshage works solo. He does everything himself, so I doubt that there will ever be a production model coming from his shop. If demand increases to the point where they need stock, my bet is that Chris and Matt will find a manufacturing source. I don't know Chris at all except through Matt, so I have no idea how he'd view such a situation - but he makes wonderful custom archtops and it's hard to imagine that he'd back away from his first love to churn out Tele clones.

[Saxophone Tall]

1. As a saxophonist / pianist and brand new guitar "student," I can see how a 7 or 8 string would be great ... but I'd need a 9 or 10 string to convert to make it wide enough! And trying to figure out a guitar with 6 strings is enough for the moment.

2. I'm OK with China, as my giant "electric Strat" is Chinese (no name, n fact), and it's really high quality, as was the conversion work done by Mark ("PC&GC" Guitars) in England (he's on Reverb & eBay). And my "front runner," Eastman, is China.

3. I'll contact Matt again. Maybe he or Chris could do the conversion. But I really need to:

(a) know the dimensions, nut & bridge; and (b) rule out an 8 (as unavailable). So far, I'm favoring the extra real estate.

4. I've played my share of commercial gigs. These days, I have a day gig and can afford to just play Jazz gigs (er, when "gigs" are once again available). I'm presently located near some MAJOR cats, and hope to put together a band where I'm the worst cat. This is on sax & some piano. Guitar is embryonic.

- Jeff

[robocoptick]

Just picked this up. no binding rot, impeccable construction, playability, timbres.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I always found them awful guitars to say the very least.

,,,as did I. I’ve always loved the GVE sound and style, which is part of why I went exclusively 7 about 30 years ago. I went to Manny’s in ‘69 or early ‘70 to try an early production Gretsch GVE I wanted to buy. It was shockingly awful in every way. It was incredibly heavy, played terribly, and sounded dull & lifeless both acoustically and amplified. I think the production models were laminated - if it was carved solid wood, whoever made it should have stuck to carving fishing bobs out of branches.

At the time, I’d been playing a 175DN for 9 years and wanted a “better” guitar (I know, I know….now). I bought a new L5-CN shortly afterward, delaying my shift to 7 strings because there was no other production 7 available and I couldn’t afford to commission one from any of the luthiers who might’ve made one for me.

I’ve played a few more Gretsch GVE examples since then and found an amazing consistency in their quality (or, more accurately, lack of same). It’s unimaginable to me that Gretsch thought that was a good guitar. FWIW, three of my current 7s have nuts that are 2+”. The problem with the GVE neck is not the width but the profile and choice of taper. It’s just plain clunky.

[robocoptick]

,,,as did I. I’ve always loved the GVE sound and style, which is part of why I went exclusively 7 about 30 years ago. I went to Manny’s in ‘69 or early ‘70 to try an early production Gretsch GVE I wanted to buy. It was shockingly awful in every way. It was incredibly heavy, played terribly, and sounded dull & lifeless both acoustically and amplified. I think the production models were laminated - if it was carved solid wood, whoever made it should have stuck to carving fishing bobs out of branches.

At the time, I’d been playing a 175DN for 9 years and wanted a “better” guitar (I know, I know….now). I bought a new L5-CN shortly afterward, delaying my shift to 7 strings because there was no other production 7 available and I couldn’t afford to commission one from any of the luthiers who might’ve made one for me.

I’ve played a few more Gretsch GVE examples since then and found an amazing consistency in their quality (or, more accurately, lack of same). It’s unimaginable to me that Gretsch thought that was a good guitar. FWIW, three of my current 7s have nuts that are 2+”. The problem with the GVE neck is not the width but the profile and choice of taper. It’s just plain clunky.

‘tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Just picked this up

You posted this while I was finishing breakfast before completing my post above. It looks beautiful, and I hope you get many years of great pleasure from it. I suspect that this model was made by different people at Gretsch over the few years it was in production, so yours may well have been built by a skilled luthier who both cared about and played the guitars he made.

Sadly, my few experiences with these were all bad, which is a shame. Had that first one been better, I would have bought it and in all probability would still be gigging with it. I bond with instruments I love - I’m still gigging with the Ibanez AF207 I bought new when they came out.

Enjoy your prize! I wish I’d found the happiness you have in the instrument.

EDIT:

‘tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools.

???? I’m far from the only one to have had this experience and to have posted about it here. I hope yours is fabulous and I’m thrilled that another 7 has found a loving home. But much of the limited production of this model was poorly received for the reasons I and others cited. I wish you nothing but happiness, and had you posted this an hour earlier I would have phrased my criticisms a bit more carefully. And FWIW, you might have done the same. I may not be GVE, but I’m a decent player.

[robocoptick]

to be fair? it’s unflattering instrument to play but the more work and intention i put into it, the more i get out of it.

not a fan of conscious suffering but when i was young, my teacher, ed mcguire, had me practicing on a harmony with square neck dobro height action.

i have several other bespoke 7s here that are incredibly easy to play but i like a challenge!

[Cunamara]

The ones I see (just started looking) are less than 2" nut (a lot less). Can you point me to one with a 2" or better nut?

I think to get a 2 inch wide electric guitar neck, you're going to have to go custom. At least for the neck; if you're playing in with a bolt-on neck, you can just replace that rather than the whole instrument. Www.warmouth.com does offer a 1 7/8" wide nut, which is the widest electric guitar neck I know of that you can order easily.

[sgosnell]

Just picked this up. no binding rot, impeccable construction, playability, timbres.

You're the first person I have ever heard say anything good about a Gretsch GVE 7-string guitar.

[Stringswinger]

You're the first person I have ever heard say anything good about a Gretsch GVE 7-string guitar.

Ditto. Mine sucked big time.

[robocoptick]

[Woody Sound]

My recollection is that the nut was at least 2" with a deep profile. George had enormous hands.

Yeah. And you know what they say about that!



Just a moment...

[robocoptick]

You're the first person I have ever heard say anything good about a Gretsch GVE 7-string guitar.

my sample size is small. this particular guitar is flawless.

[sgosnell]

Well, they say even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then. I'm glad you found a guitar you like. Play it in good health. I've personally never played one, only heard bad things about them.

[GuyBoden]

Same guitar, but a bit of a contrast in styles.

[robocoptick]

Same guitar, but a bit of a contrast in styles.

i cover a lot of ground w/ work. it’s great that this gtr can too! i knew that the filtertrons would do well with high gain.