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I've had this Epi Emperor Regent (Peerless, July 1999) since new. It's my first archtop after a 25-year abstinence from playing.There's been and are quite a few others, including ES-175s and a Benedetto Bravo. While those are benchmark guitars, I'm really wondering why this EPI model, and sister Broadway, don't command a higher resale value. The acoustic sound has improved over time and, I dare say, matches many carved guitars. The build quality is flawless, and the inlays and bindings are quite complex. Just look at the photo: nine-ply top and back binding, five-ply pickguard edge, three-ply fretboard binding, all well executed and stable. One can always nag about hardware and electronic components; mine has its third PU, and one pot was changed under warranty. But replacing all those is a matter of a few hundred clams, while the value gap to USA made guitars is four-digit. Why? Brand? Pressure from above from Japanese 1970s-1980s achtops? Pressure from below from current, even cheaper, yet objectively good-to-excellent Chinese and Indonesian builds?
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03-01-2021 04:10 PM
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Supply and demand.
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Sure. I majored in macro-economics 50 years ago and vaguely recall those intersecting curves. Supply isn't excessive; there's more premium guitars in the For Sale section all the time than the likes of these. I'm puzzled by the low demand. Almost 20 years ago I attended a seminar in Florida. There was a great jazz trio playing in the hotel lobby. The guitarist had an Emperor Regent just like mine. I was even more delighted when he told me it was as good as any of his Gibsons, only a lot more sensible for a touring musician
Originally Posted by skykomishone
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The buyer? But I suppose thats supply and demand too. But Epiphone in the States had a rather poor ‘second to Gibson’ rep in the late 60s-70s.
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Various cues. The nameplate. Epi is known, these days, as a cheaper Gibson. Which pros use the model. Somehow, whether it's seen as cool.
Thoughts about resale value.
When I was a teen player in the 60s, the jazz guys coveted D'Angelicos and played Gibsons. Everybody respected Guild and nobody wanted one -- and the Guilds of that era are great guitars. Jazz guys had no use for Fender anything in my neck of the woods. It was Gibson and Ampeg. Gretsch was considered a country guitar with stupidly painted-on F holes. The jazz guys laughed at Gretsch even while they struggled with feedback on their Gibsons.
I don't think the quality of the specific model enters into it as much as it should. Disclosure: I think my Yamaha Pacifica 012, their cheapest Strat copy, is a very good guitar (maybe after some minor hardware improvements).
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I suspect that the market for archtops with floaters is pretty heavily saturated, and Epi Emperor Regents are neither rarer nor dramatically better than any of a number of other Ibanezes, Washburns, Asian-made Guilds etc, that do the same job. It's a niche market, and there are a lot of guitars, but not all that many buyers, hence low prices clear the market. Looked at strictly in terms of sound and playability, it may be as good as a Johnny Smith (at least plugged in), but the world of collectors looks at more than that (especially details not found on mass produced Asian guitars).
As a buyer with three relatively inexpensive but fantastic quality Asian-made guitars, I'm not complaining (nor am I selling).
John
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good news .... Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar;[URL="[URL
I just bought a Pacifica 112v for £100
what hardware do you you think
I should I look at to improve ?
It seem ok ....
(its got stock SSH alnico V pickups)
maybe a better neck pu ?
I’m gonna put flats on it and want to
use it for Jazz AND modern pop/soul
(a compromise I know but I only wanna
pack one guitar)
sorry to derail ....
carry on folks
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In no specific order:
- Emotions of buyers are often immeasurably powerful / irrationally so!
- People want "The Best" of whatever, and when something has that status,
it's lusted for, whether or not that status is scientifically substantiable.
- People want the instruments that "The EARLY Great Guitarists" presented
their work on, who ever the BUYER sees as "An Early GREAT Guitarist". If
a buyer is a Chet Atkins fan, that buyer is certainly open to buying a Gretsch.
George Van Eps fans will seek USA made Epiphones and Gretsch 7 stringers.
- American made guitars from the EARLY 1960s and prior decades, have a
"demi-god" status, (George Benson Models by Ibanez, for example, just don't)
and that's rooted in the above.
- American buyers will experience the "Patriotism" affect when buying an
American made guitar.
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Behavioral economics. [Same reasons some people buy $500 jeans.]
My first jazz guitar was a very nice 1988 Gibson L-4 CES. When I went to sell it (to fund my first custom guitar), I couldn't give it away (around 2001)! Everyone wanted a 175! For whatever reasons now, they seem to get a bit more respect...
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For the same reason my Lyle L5/175 "mashup" will never be worth to sell what it would cost to replace the playability and plugged in sound.
Brand names can and do matter immensely in what most people will pay for whatever items are involved.
Reputation matters for giving anyone a feeling their spending the money will not be a waste. Both intellectually and emotionally.
So getting an awesome player like your Epi or my Lyle at the low cost they are comparatively is great for us in acquisition, not so great if we want to sell.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Remember the "diamonds and water paradox"? Adam Smith called it "the paradox of value". The buyer measures value by two standards: the item's practical value in use (in which case water is more valuable than diamonds") as versus the value that some other buyer may be willing to pay for the item (in which case diamonds are perceived to be more valuable than water). How many guitar discussions ultimately devolve into predicted resale values? That argument is used to support the prices of both Gibson guitars and Rolex watches. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
Last edited by Jim Soloway; 03-02-2021 at 12:29 PM.
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Here's my experience. I bought mine used. It already had replacement tuners. I've never played any others of this model, so I don't know if the stock tuners are ok or not. Mine stays in tune way better than my Comins GCS-1. If yours tunes up easily and holds tune, I wouldn't change a thing. Originally Posted by pingu
Now, because I bought it used, I don't know how well it was, or wasn't, cared for. I do know that the humbucker in the bridge position died. I lowered it (so the magnet wouldn't affect the strings so much), disconnected it and left it in. I also had to replace the 5 position switch. I also replaced the stock neck pickup with a Seymour Duncan Lil 59, but that was to change the sound --there was nothing wrong with the stock pickup. Pots were all fine.
So, someone could argue that it's a cheap piece of crap. You shouldn't have to replace tuners, pickups and switch.
BUT, otoh, it stays in tune really well. I love the neck (others will find it too small). It sounds pretty good to me (you can hear it in the Improvisation section of this forum, played thru some cheapie amplification). I usually take the Comins GCS-1 on gigs because I think it sounds a little fuller, but I've taken the Pacifica 012 on a lot of gigs and it was fine.
BTW. Mine was made in Indonesia and I believe the woods are agathis and cocobolo. I see that the new ones are maple and mahogany. That sounds like the new ones might be better, but I'd have to play them to have an opinion.
One other point. When I had single coils in the neck and middle positions, I compared the sound. It was a little different, but not that much. So, I figured, if I wanted a more traditional single coil Strat sound, I'd just use the middle pickup. I don't do it very often, but it does work.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-02-2021 at 03:48 AM.
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That's a great inexpensive guitar. I wouldn't do anything to it. I have a Pacifica 102S. The tuners stay in tune fine. The playability of the guitar is excellent. I "upgraded" the neck pickup and didn't hear much real improvement. I'd leave it alone and just play the hell out of it. Originally Posted by pingu
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cool , thanks for the advice Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
(and everyone else)
I played it a bit before taking it apart to
do it up and so far I do love it ....
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Shhh! Korean Emperor Regents are supposed to be a secret! Mine has the nicest neck of all my guitars, stays in tune, doesn't weigh a ton, looks great, sounds great. Why would I want to sell it? Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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Mine as well. They are incredible values! Originally Posted by citizenk74
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At least in my neck of the woods there aren't too many 17" floaters around. BTW, I had a nice 2006 D'Angelico NYL-2 by Vestax (Terada) for a while. A pressed top vs. laminate, ebony fretboard vs. rosewood, MIJ sticker and of course the brand and the looks, made it five times as expensive as the ER. Blindfolded, I could hardly tell one from the other. Objectively, there was no visual difference in build quality either.
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The vintage and resale market is one of the purest examples of the law of supply and demand.
As far as valuation, that would depend on a bit of an equation: Rarity x Quality x Perceived Value.
Gibsons like the 175 and LP and L5 hit that mark, while Korean models unfortunately don't. I have a Peerless Sunset and had a Samick-made Epi Joe Pass that were *almost* as good as anything you could get at the time--for a fraction of the cost of a Gibson. They are certainly well-made, extremely comfortable to play, and get that mellow jazz sound down well.
However...the thing about most foreign-made guitars (at least as of 20 years ago or so) is A) they are derivative of a classic American design and B) they fall short in 1 or 2 key areas--thick poly finish, less durable plating of metal parts, subpar electronics, less expressive pickups.
They are certainly good values, as my Peerless would attest, but collectible or with a high resale value? Not a lot of them would fit that bill.
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Former owner
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There's the D'Angelico EXL-1 (severa MIK vairiants) and the Guild A150 Savoy, all plentiful in the online market. "In my neck of the woods" matters a lot less than it used to when talking about the guitar market. These strike me as similar quality to the EER (though I haven't tried an EER in a really long time, so I could be wrong). The D'A looks to command slightly higher prices (at least in Reverb sold listings), but there are plenty of all 3 that sold with asking prices in a common range, 40-ish percent below new prices. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
I think this speaks to the market being relatively over supplied for guitars at this quality and feature point. The Vestaxes have somewhat different features and visual details from the MIK ones (not having played one, I can't comment on whether they're better, but many who have played both say they are), and there are a lot fewer of them. Plus MIJ is just axiomatically "better" in the collective guitar buying mind. So higher prices make some sense.
John
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As a person somewhat addicted to buying and selling guitars, I‘ve found that price and functional value don’t necessarily correlate. With guitars, it’s all about subjective value. That varies depending on the buyer.
Around 20 years ago I bought my first handmade arch top by a maker many of you would recognize. A short time later I tried an Epiphone Emperor Regent and found, to my dismay, that it played and sounded better than my fancy new guitar.
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I bought my ER used about 12 years ago and am still shocked when I pick it up and play it by what a pittance it cost. I could never see selling it because, based on current resale values, what it would sell for would never compensate for how much I'd miss it. That's how I look at it in terms of value. I'd never sell it for what I could get for it! I guess that make it invaluable to me? Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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Current buyer Originally Posted by Hoots
Former owner
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Originally Posted by Hoots
Former owner
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I suspect there is or was a baby boomer impact where guys who had great old guitars or always wanted one can afford one now. I still haven't got my '68 L-5 but that day will come. ( and throw in a '54 gold top Les Paul). maybe a pre-war Martin ...hope my wife doesn't see this
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All of us boomers are in the same boat. Originally Posted by jaco
"Remember that guitar (or car or bike or whatever) I wanted when I was a kid? Well now that I've got some money I'm gonna get one!"
A short time later after researching on the internet: "OMG I can't believe what these go for now. Are they CRAZY??"
Shortly after that sighs and enters credit card information into the auction site...
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I want a Korean Epi ER. Bloody great guitars.
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I've had three 90's and early 2000s Epiphones, and they're nice enough for the money, but honestly they're intermediate level, not "heirloom" instruments. A used Emperor Regent is worth 6-800 bucks tops. I had the common issues others here have listed- muddy sounding pickups, tarnishing of the "gold" finishes, heavy poly finish. One of the JP's i owned had marginal intonation, it and a Broadway I had both had bad pickup switches. At one point, I considered upgrading my JP (after owning it for over 20 years!) until I found one that had already been worked on, for about what an upgrade would have cost. It was an improvement, but in the budget archtop category I moved on to a D'Angelico Excel.
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Nailed it..
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Buyer motivation is a key factor. I've just (knowingly) overpaid by at least 15% in order to be 100% certain of securing a guitar I've been looking for since 1975, after my original was stolen.... the cost is deginitely "worth it" TO ME ..... delivery imminent
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Good going and here's hoping it's all you want it to be ! Originally Posted by Ray175
Buyer motivation is a key factor. I've just (knowingly) overpaid by at least 15% in order to be 100% certain of securing a guitar I've been looking for since 1975, after my original was stolen.... the cost is deginitely "worth it" TO ME ..... delivery imminent
If so, you paid what it took to take the guitar out of the market. Give yourself credit for not letting the 'experts' sway you.
The expert says: " You're paying too much. "
Then the shopper says: " Well, maybe - - but do you - or anyone you know - have one for that 'right' price now ? "
The expert says: " Why uh, no I don't have one or uh, know of any, but one could pop up, possibly, maybe, I mean you never know . "
Whatever that 10% premium was, it may have done two good things - -- gotten you the guitar you want * and * given you the good fortune of no longer listening to that ' expert '. : )
Just MHO
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I don't know if it's universal in other countries, but in the US at least it seems to be a big deal to cheat someone else out of a profit, I mean, get a GREAT deal on something. (This seems to apply MUCH more to men than women, just my observation. Probably a testerone-related phenomenon.) Originally Posted by Dennis D
I understand the motivation, but a lot of times it leads to demonizing the seller, especially if a car dealer or chain guitar store or other large corporation. However, salesmen and sellers want to make a living too. So I don't begrudge someone making a profit, as long as it's within reason.
A great deal I think is where the buyer and the seller both feel satisfied with the deal.
A bit of a digression, but I'm sure many of you have been to the Middle East. It's a *challenging* experience to haggle over there, and often just to walk around a crowded market.
"Sir, please come look. I'll give you a great deal, but just for you. Don't tell anyone else about it."
"I don't need a hookah."
"Sir, only 200 shekels."
"That's too much, and I don't need one."
"OK 100 shekels."
"Sorry, I'm in a hurry."
"20 shekels, and just for you sir. My final offer."
Now how am I gonna fit a hookah in my luggage?
True story.
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well, we do not risk too much with this old wise statement. Originally Posted by skykomishone
But what determines the demand? I am sure that direct and indirect marketing, and also the press, and also the community has impact. So we are not closer to the answer to why? Like what is the difference between the squirrel and the rat? (their press)
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James Cagney never called anyone "a dirty squirrel"... Originally Posted by Gabor
Also squirrels do not harbor plague.
I am sure those all ("direct and indirect marketing, and also the press, and also the community") fit into the category of perceived value.Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 03-03-2021 at 12:58 PM.
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Jazzmasters and Jaguars were found in junk shops, in the 1980s. Sonic Youth found them there, and made them hip.
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subsequent question
why are we guitar players so in thrall
to the past .... ?
all these old guitars
all these guitars made to look old
relic-ing .... do what ?
it’s as if all the good music has
already been made ....
oh wait ....
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They were indeed considered not worth much in the late 70’s. But the Talking Heads, Television and Elvis Costello preceded Sonic Youth by a few years. There may have been others in the “New Wave” movement as well who contributed to the resurgent popularity of the surf guitars. Originally Posted by Litterick
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Sonic Youth might have made them cool, but Kurt Co ain made them marketable.
My favorite Thurston Moore quote:
"Before Guns n Roses, you could get a Les Paul for like ten bucks.
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Vintage Guitar publishes a price guide every October for about $25, U.S. For the U.S. market it is helpful. If you have a bunch of guitars (as if-> on a forum like this) it can be fun looking up current values. It can also be fun to look for missing entries. I find it helps set a value when buying or selling.
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It’s funny..
My Emperor Regent is fast becoming one of my favorite guitars that I’ve ever had.
The underdog syndrome applies here in spades. The EER plays the role of the fighter not the thriver to a “T”.
It doesn’t copy anything. It has its own name on the headstock. The vine of life. The odd Epi pickguard. It’s a 17” archtop with a perfect neck and a 3” depth. Trinity. And we bought ours and didn’t get in trouble for it.
It’s the best deal in the business. And I am proud of the one I have. I love it, and I make it feel like it’s a Monteleone on my wall.
Thanks for praising this wonderful guitar. It is a sweetheart.
JD
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This says it all!! I still want to get the finish on mine to look like the one on yours! That is a project I hope to do yet. (There's really nothing wrong with mine, but yours looks like a Ferrari. These guitars play like Ferraris so they should look the part! Originally Posted by Max405
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Originally Posted by JazzyJeff
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What a buyer is willing to pay for it.
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You know, there were guitarists BEFORE Slash? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Slash just made them cool again for like the 5th time...
It was a copy of a Japanese model (17”) which was a copy of an original American Epiphone (18”). It slimmed down to 16”. Same styling, though laminate not carved top. Originally Posted by Max405
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Value down, limited audience, or not sellable...
Hockey stick, snake, and other non standard head.
Tremolo
Single cut Semi hollow
Volute
Wood used in body all wrong
Physical marks, perish forbid, signs of use.
It's in a bad color
Too big
Too small
Wrong year
Value up...
Joe Schmo famous player plays one +$ with name on head
Joe Schmo famous player plays one and it has cigarette burns on the head.
Joe Schmo famous player dies +$$$
It's "rare"
Reissue causes original samples that were low value before re-issue to skyrocket in price
Factory burns in raging inferno
U.S, German, Japanese etc. model now exclusively made somewhere else.
How good does it play? Sound? Nah. not important.
I think that about covers it :-0
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What the market will pay and subjective enjoyment.
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I just spent the last two days driving in the Ozark mountains to buy a 1967 Fender Super Reverb and I am very happy with it. The name of the store is Backwoods Guitars and its in Sedalia, Missouri about an hour from Kansas City. He has several different original black face Fender guitar amps from the sixties. The owners name is Aaron and he is reasonable about the value which is market. I paid 1700$ for a nice one. He has a Vibroverb and a Twin , Pro reverb , Super reverb and some others. Some are listed on Reverb as local pickup only. I drove about 8 hours each way but I was able to try before I buy so I didnt mind. In fact I went for the ProReverb and liked the SR better its my fifth Super Reverb but the Pro is nice but needs a little work and is available for 1500 since its not modernized with 3 prong and might need filter caps. HAPPY HUNTING!!!!
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The Vibroverb is a Stevie Ray price since its older 1961 and I think because of him its about double the price of the other Blackface Fenders. Rare and celeb cred drives them up I guess but those 15 inch speakers sure sound good for jazz guitar!
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The OP's question is like - why does a girl like him and not you?
Is it his hair?
His build? His looks? His car?
Ultimately, it's just that she likes him and not you.
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