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Another L5 thread! Lol
Does refinishing an L5 effect the guitars tone in anyway besides lower its value? I tried a great L5 and was told it was refinished because the guy wanted a blonde...I couldn’t tell. Would you guys buy a refinished guitar for a bit less or just spend more? Does it matter ? Its a refinished 96 Wes from a reputable shop For 5800
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02-12-2021 09:48 PM
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A refin may or may not affect the tone, all guitars are different.
I typically don't buy refins, they're hard to sell down the road.
But the price you quoted is close to what one w the original finish would sell for. I'd keep looking if I were you.
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Just a note, a refin typically cuts the price in half from an original finish. I'd expect a refinished Wes Montgomery to be priced around 3K, certainly no more than $3500
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thanks for the advice
Originally Posted by wintermoon
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what would you price a used near mint condition 1993 Wes Montgomery at? What difference does the year make on this model? Originally Posted by wintermoon
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There are some folks that follow prices for modern guitars more closely than me who will probably chime in, but I know they've gone up recently. A good starting point would be to check sold prices (not asking prices) on ebay and reverb.
Without checking I'd guess around 6K for a sunburst model, maybe a bit more.
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really depends on how well, and esp. how long ago the refinish was done!...i've seen plenty of vintage guitars posted here with refinishes or oversprays, listed as original...if done well, with no harm to tone..and looks better?...why not? most buyers want a fresh lookin guitar!
there's a lot worse that someone can do to a guitar than refinish! (if done well)
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 02-13-2021 at 01:41 AM.
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I think we're assuming it's pretty well done as he said he couldn't tell it had been refinished. Nothing wrong w a good refin but at $5800 it's way too much imo no matter how well done, but ymmv
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wm, i defer to you as far as current pricing...just saying have seen guitars posted here that were refinshed or oversprayed without mention...and i don't think it was usually intentional...
rereadng ops post see its a '96...i was speaking to more vintage
cheers
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Not really, I know a little about vintage guitars, modern ones much less so, but think I'm in the ballpark here. Just have to consider certain factors when laying out that kinda dough unless you plan to keep forever and $ is no object.
But yeah, amazing how many guitars w incorrect descriptions out there (even some old guitars I used to personally own that have appeared on some dealers list) I rarely question anyone anymore, not worth the hard feelings .that sometime arise.
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Based on what I’ve seen, I wouldn’t recommend going over $7,000 for one in great condition, allowing some upward wiggle room for an example that is truly exceptional in some way. Just a couple of years ago you could find mint condition Wes examples for around $5000 fairly easily. They do seem to have moved upward recently. That is my current appraisal, but I haven’t had an electric L-5 fir sale in a few years.
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Interesting,What makes a guitar value move upward ? When it starts stepping into or close to the vintage category ? Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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In this case, I would think that it’s still more supply and demand. Newer Gibson archtops may have a perceived greater value, since they have left standard production runs and custom ordered ones are very expensive. Originally Posted by IndalecioGuitar87
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Vintage has little to do with price. It is all about supply and demand. Whenever demand exceeds supply, the price goes up until it hits a point where potential buyers lose interest. Simple economics. Originally Posted by IndalecioGuitar87
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My data are a few years old: back in in the early to mid 2010s, I saw L5 WMs ASB from the early to late-90s sell on ebay from $4850 to $5300. The Ebony and Wine Red ones are a lot cheaper, from $4200 to $4650. Blondes were about $500 to $800 more. There was a 2004 L5 WM ASB special run with a WM Heart silkscreened on the pickguard that sold on ebay for $4400. So, you do see anomalies. I think it was due to a bad listing title that got it low interest.
The median was about $5000. Back in 2012, a new L5 WM ASB had a MAP of $6480. There was and is wiggle room-you could get 15% or more discount, especially if you paid cash off the MAP.
As Gibson raise prices, the used market prices would move upwards concomitantly. If it has a particularly nice finish or figure, the price would reflect that. The Crimson Custom era that started in 2012 under Mark McGuire saw a bump up in prices. Used Crimson Custom L5 WMs tend to ask for a higher price.
You could identify the Shop Supervisors by the figure of the maple and the tones of the sunburst. Under Jim Hutchins, the maple chosen had much more symmetry, mostly pinstriped flames, with no mineral streaks, rings or bald spots. The ASB was warmer with more cognac than black, amber than yellow. Under Mark McGuire, the maple figure was a lot wilder, less symmetric, intertwined tendrils of flames, with mineral rings, streaks, the occasional bald patch, more characterful. The ASB was a lot colder, more blue in the black, more yellow than amber. Philip Whorton largely carried on where McGuire left off but with cleaner maple-no mineral rings, streaks or spots. I don't know if Whorton is still the Shop Sup but the last two 2021 L5CESes showed plainer looking maple, less strong figure, that James Hutchins would have rejected. Plain maple is not necessarily bad-Jimmy D'Aquisto thought plain maple made better sounding guitars. Almost everybody loves figured maple though. Norlin Gibsons got a bad rap in part due to its use of plain (but finely silked under scrutiny) maple.
I know scoff at "Hutchins era" as they see no special premium in the Hutchins signature. Whether you put any enhanced value on Hutchins signature is up to you. My observations still stand though. Not talking about value but about style.
Oh well, just my journeyman observations. Take them them for what they are worth.
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What makes prices go up are sellers trying to get more money for the instrument. There is no intrinsic monetary value to a guitar; it is solely worth what the seller and buyer negotiate as the price. Originally Posted by IndalecioGuitar87
I think the price increases tend to start with professionals selling instruments such as Joe V at archtops.com, Gruhn, Norm's, etc. Their costs of doing business constantly go up so they raise prices commensurately. These folks are highly motivated to sell instruments, so they probably tend to keep prices down to the extent they can in keeping with staying in business. Typically they will also clean and set up the guitar, fix things that need to be fixed, etc. which is a value added service and is figured into the price.
As those prices go up, private sellers tend to price up with them. A private seller may be able to hold onto an instrument for years until he or she gets the price they want from a buyer, somebody running a business needs to turn that stock over. And, as pointed out above, as the cost of new instruments go up that tends to provide some headroom for used instruments going up as well.
These are the same phenomena governing the prices of used cars. I think that is an apropos comparison rather than collectibles like antique furniture. Collectibles often don't have a lot of practical use; antique furniture, for example, is often rather fragile and people don't want to use it for fear of damaging the value. But cars and guitars both have practical utility; at the high end of both markets, though, collectibility kicks in more than utility. Pricing factors are different for original Jimmy D'Aquisto guitars than it is for Gibson ES-175s.
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Price appreciation?
1. Supply and demand is correct. (Just compare D'Aquisto's prices before and after his passing. Not unlike a famous artist). And supply of new Gibson archtops has declined as of late.
2. Carved top guitars appreciate (even though they're not 100% handmade anymore). Objects that are handmade with special skills - in general - command a heavier price tag. Gibson custom shop guitars from 2018 back to the early 2000s or so had superior looking booked-matched figuring relative to other periods, including the current one (and don't even talk about the Norlin era, egads I had one of those)
3. And if it has PAF pickups.... oh baby.
The resale thing with these carved top Gibsons is "how clean is it?". As an owner you want to be able to say "mint", "as new", "spotless", "without a blemish" etc. All of that is pretty tough to maintain if you play the thing very much. The more dings the more discount, the more blemishes... Unless it has PAFs, then it can practically be in shambles, lol.
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Why is a guitar refinished in the first place? 1) Someone wants to change the color = dumb unless you're a John Lennon stripping a Casino. 2) The original finish is cracked or otherwise damaged to the point of being annoying or otherwise detrimental. I've never understood why 2) is supposed to cut the instrument's value by up to 50%, if it's meant to enhance its usability and appearance. 1700s violins have been restored several times, likewise most of the antique furniture on the market. Why should guitars be different in this respect? Confession: I once had a lackluster Levin archtop from the 1940s. Went through it with a weasel-hair brush and cellulose dope thinned by some 80%. Traded it in for about what I had paid for it, only to discover that the price was doubled by a vintage specialist, and soon it was gone.
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IIRC it is kind of hard to turn a SB into a blonde. The dark finish on the edges soaks into the wood. Plus, the blondes were typically made with the best looking wood in the first place.
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