Flattop for jazz?

[Cunamara]

How many of us play jazz on a flat top guitar at least some of the time? Does anybody use a flat top for jazz most of the time or perform jazz on one?


After Tony Rice's death I pulled my old flat top out of the closet; sometimes it sits for a year or more while I mainly play my archtops, Tele or Strat. Mine is a Takamine F-340S (blatant Martin D-18 copy down to the headstock and decal) and is the first guitar I bought in 1979. For the first six or seven years I studied guitar it was my only instrument, until I bought my GB10 in '86, so it is the one on which my hands were formed so to speak. As a result, it really does feel like "home" when I play it. My jazz teacher from 1980-87 had a 1940s L7 followed by a Johnny Smith, so I have long had this attitude that a 17" archtop is the "proper" guitar to play jazz. However, I am really enjoying playing jazz on the flat top. The tone is warmer and very open and the sustain envelope of the note isn't necessarily longer than my archtop but it's different.

So it's probably not going to go back into the closet. Even though it was a cheap guitar when I bought it for, I think, $200 which might've even included the case ($690 in today's dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics), I don't think it sounds any worse in my hands than any Martin I've ever tried except for the David Bromberg M-42 model, which was a cannon with huge bass (but also $5000 or some such).

[DRS]

I have a Taylor 312CE 12 Fret which is very nice for solo jazz guitar.

[John A.]

How many of us play jazz on a flat top guitar at least some of the time? Does anybody use a flat top for jazz most of the time or perform jazz on one?


After Tony Rice's death I pulled my old flat top out of the closet; sometimes it sits for a year or more while I mainly play my archtops, Tele or Strat. Mine is a Takamine F-340S (blatant Martin D-18 copy down to the headstock and decal) and is the first guitar I bought in 1979. For the first six or seven years I studied guitar it was my only instrument, until I bought my GB10 in '86, so it is the one on which my hands were formed so to speak. As a result, it really does feel like "home" when I play it. My jazz teacher from 1980-87 had a 1940s L7 followed by a Johnny Smith, so I have long had this attitude that a 17" archtop is the "proper" guitar to play jazz. However, I am really enjoying playing jazz on the flat top. The tone is warmer and very open and the sustain envelope of the note isn't necessarily longer than my archtop but it's different.

So it's probably not going to go back into the closet. Even though it was a cheap guitar when I bought it for, I think, $200 which might've even included the case ($690 in today's dollars, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics), I don't think it sounds any worse in my hands than any Martin I've ever tried except for the David Bromberg M-42 model, which was a cannon with huge bass (but also $5000 or some such).

I had a Gibson dreadnought for decades, and played a lot of jazz on it. I thought the tone was fine for that - a different but valid color, especially playing on my own at home. Over time, I found the dread shape uncomfortable and lack of a cutaway somewhat frustrating, so decided to switch to something else, but just because of the form factor, not the tone.

After a long search, I eventually settled on a Gypsy jazz guitar (short scale, D-hole), which is sort of a flattop (and this model shades a little closer to a traditional flattop tone than most).

In some ways I think it's a better "jazz" sound (especially single note playing) and it blends really well with a nylon string in duets (something I do). But purely on its own for solo/chord-melody or to complement a vocal, I think a traditional flattop sounds better, and sometimes better than an acoustic archtop. If I had room for both, I'd have both.

John

[John A.]

I have a Taylor 312CE 12 Fret which is very nice for solo jazz guitar.

Those are beautiful sounding guitars.

John

[Gitterbug]

Not that I do it a lot, I find that dreadnoughts and jumbos are too large and boomy for jazz. A cheap 17" Samick which was only about 2" deep (from memory) worked better. My current Martin GPCPA4 with the neck joint at 14th fret and a cutaway is perfect for the planned acoustic duo/trio which never took off and has been on hold indefinitely.

[Cunamara]

I did install an under-saddle pickup close to 30 years ago. I believe it was Martin branded although frankly my memory going back that far is not necessarily reliable. Did Martin even sell aftermarket under-saddle transducer pickups? I didn't know anything about pre-amplification at the time, so I plugged it straight into my fender pro reverb; it didn't sound very good! Many years later I bought a Baggs preamp pedal and that helped tremendously with the amplified sound, also allowing for EQ to reduce the excessive bassy-ness through the amp. And a soundhole plug since it feeds back even more strenuously than my arch top. But I have never used it at a gig.

I wonder how Gabor Szabo avoided feedback with his use of a Martin flattop with a DeArmond soundhole pickup.

[deacon Mark]

I have never like the sound of a flattop for jazz. The players I have heard use them include Gabor Szabo and Phillip Catherine for sure. I never cared for the sound they got at all. I do love to hear Catherine playing his 175 for great sound and lines. I think I have heard in the past Larry Coryell playing a flattop and again the sound never did a thing for me. They are generally even worse for rhythm because the sound is not focused. The only sounding guitar I like less for jazz are Ovations. In fact I cannot stand Ovation guitars. They are a pain in the rear to hold and sound terrible........I mean terrible.

I find flattops guitars irritating to play just because of the response unless you are doing something I think they were completely designed for. In that case a Martin D works great for bluegrass rhythm and and for fingerstyle playing I really like a Martin 000. To really get the best out of these guitars they require you to play in open string friendly keys with a real working of the right hand fingers. I don't play that style to any degree and therefore no use for a flattop. However if you have a 000-42 and it bothers you just send it to me I will take care of it and try to train myself to play in that style.

[neatomic]

I wonder how Gabor Szabo avoided feedback with his use of a Martin flattop with a DeArmond soundhole pickup.

he didn't! he incorporated it into his playing style...he'd turn toward the amp and the note would sustain...kinda like an e-bow!...he did it often...and santana and coryell, who were big fans used his feedback technique as well

check this---around the 2:50 mark....from one of his best albums-dreams

Half the Day Is Night

cheers

[mr. beaumont]

Quite a bit. Been sweet on this Martin 000 lately.

[guido5]

As a lark after, listening to way too much Ralph Towner, I bought a Eastman OM20. It has a really amazing richness and sparkle to the tone and I really love the neck and playability (but the utter hell the phosphor bronze strings impart on the finger tips of my left hand....)

John Abercrombie did a lovely version of Alice in Wonderland on flattop...

[neatomic]

g5- you could try a monel string..like the martin retro's...tony rice always used nickel or monel strings on his flat tops...softer metal...also d'addario has a nickel plated bronze string that might be softer on your fingertips

towner used a guild 12 string!! that's finger stress! hah

cheers

[deacon Mark]

Quite a bit. Been sweet on this Martin 000 lately.

Mr B my north neighbor that was fantastic I take back what I said about those flattops. That was completely nice and of course the key was suited to the open strings that helps but still very nice playing.

[guido5]

g5- you could try a monel string..like the martin retro's...tony rice always used nickel or monel strings on his flat tops...softer metal...also d'addario has a nickel plated bronze string that might be softer on your fingertips

towner used a guild 12 string!! that's finger stress! hah

cheers

I tried the D'Addario nickel plated bronze and just hated the brittle tone. I have the Flat Tops on now but have been distracted with enough other things on the plate I haven't given them their due.

I have a set of D'Addario Chrome flatwounds that I find unplayable on archtop. Would the guitar gods swoop down and smite me if I put those on?

The OM is my compromise between Ralph's 12 and classical sounds... But I keep using a pick... :-(

[sgcim]

It sounded like Tal Farlow used a flat top on some cuts on one of his later albums in the 50s, "The Guitar Artistry of Tal Farlow".

[fasteddie]

Mr B my north neighbor that was fantastic I take back what I said about those flattops. That was completely nice and of course the key was suited to the open strings that helps but still very nice playing.

I’ll play jazz on my Martin D28. Not even close to how good you play. But now you got me jonesing for a 000.

[neatomic]

mclaughlin used acoustics on all his early stuff...followed szabo w dearmond soundhole pup



his classic blinkys dream from extrapolation

cheers

[neatomic]

I tried the D'Addario nickel plated bronze and just hated the brittle tone. I have the Flat Tops on now but have been distracted with enough other things on the plate I haven't given them their due.

I have a set of D'Addario Chrome flatwounds that I find unplayable on archtop. Would the guitar gods swoop down and smite me if I put those on?

The OM is my compromise between Ralph's 12 and classical sounds... But I keep using a pick... :-(

by whatever means necessary!...tho the d'a stainless steel "chrome" flats, will have less acoustic output than bronze strings..so what you gain in feel you might lose in volume & tone

following the quest for ralph, you might like thomastik plectrums...a very soft low tension bronze set...not very aggresive volume wise...but soft focused tone...more towner on classical vibe..and very easy on the hands!

you might give the flat tops more time as well


luck


cheers

[guido5]

Hmmm... Pulled the OM20 back out tonite... The Flat Tops are feeling dull and quiet. These electric things seem to have spoiled me. I may need to go back to the Phosphor Bronzes and just "harden the heck up"* a bit...






* not what I really said...

[BickertRules]

Flat top for jazz? Ask Gabor.

[neatomic]

and just to dispel any notions...szabo was the first to cut breezin..about 5 years before benson cut it...(you know he heard szabos version!)

wriitten by the great bobby womack...who was actually part of the szabo sessions

and check the stellar line -up

Gábor Szabó – Electric guitar, Acoustic guitar
Bobby Womack – Songwriter, Electric rhythm guitar
Jim Keltner – Drums
Felix "Flaco" Falcon – Congas
Phil Upchurch – Bass
Rene Hall – String arrangements
Carmelo Garcia – Percussion
Bruce Botnick – Audio engineer
Tommy LiPuma – Tambourine, Gourd percussion, record producer

greats all

cheers

[Chazmo]

I play any songs I know on various electric and acoustic guitars, archtops and flattops. They all have different characters, but they're all just guitars.

[Stringswinger]

I play any songs I know on various electric and acoustic guitars, archtops and flattops. They all have different characters, but they're all just guitars.

Exactly. You can play jazz on any guitar. It is the mechanic, not the tool.

[bonesyboy]

cut my teeth on a flat top, Maton dreadnought (Aussie brand) , my teacher the late Bruce Clarke used a Martin , a bit of sage advice from Bruce was always use same strings in your flatty as you would in your arch top and it never hurt the Maton.... Chromes 12--52...25 years later the Maton is still by my side and gets used every day ...yeah flat tops are gutless for volume but at 2am in the morn you can bang em as hard as you like and still have neighbours .. a caveat... buy the best.. I also use a Guild starfire 67, fender jazz master and a cort LC11

[JazzPadd]

Thanks for asking and for sharing the stories and preferences. I love those Gabor Szabo sounds!

I've done some live duo and solo playing on a Taylor 712CE with a cutaway and a K&K Pure Mini under bridge. I like the feel of the smaller body for jazz, though noticed in a duo context with the other player on semi-hollow electric that I tended to dig in more than on my electrics, which added some string snap on the verge of a percussive buzzing into the sound. So, as others also noted, my touch becomes very different. I've also used a K. Yairi hybrid guitar/bass flattop with an L.R. Baggs iMix system and dual outputs. The low A and E strings are as on a bass and the other four as on a regular guitar, so the dual outputs can be split to two amps if needed. It has a longer scale length to accommodate the bass strings, which makes the other strings more taut, so it's another feel altogether. Haven't tried either of these in anything beyond a solo or duo setting.

Looking forward to hearing more stories and preferences, and listening to some more playing!

[JGinNJ]

There's a guy in my area who's been gigging for decades with an A LoPrinzi flatop.
Taylor's magazine had an article last year on Mimi Fox and her Builder's Edition guitar. She's a great player I wasn't familiar with. She has some tunes on Youtube with it, her execution is great, but the sound doesn't do it for me.

I have a couple of nice ones that I bought a few years back when I explored fingerpicking & roots music, and i have a beater I can leave in the trunk, etc.

I still enjoy playing acoustics around the house, but then I'm drawn to playing tunes they're better suited to (which is not most jazz). The sound for jazz and chord melody is too bright and twangy for me, even with monel strings, and they make me work too hard, especially up the neck.