The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    OK so, this question may seem a little odd? I'm looking for tips on how to make an electric archtop- with BODY MOUNTED pickups, like an ES-175, to sound as "hollow" as possible.... meaning, to sound less like a solidbody electric guitar, and more like an archtop with a floating pickup, for example.

    I realize they are different beasts, just looking for tips to maximize the "hollowness" of my guitar.... I think the pickups (it's a Gretsch, so they are Filtertrons) may be holding me back from a "woodier" tone (I think P90s, for example, would do a better job of that than mid-scooped humbuckers would do, which is what Filtertrons are).

    Anyway, any tips on maximizing the "woody hollow" tone of a fully-hollow-but-electric archtop?

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  3. #2

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    Others may not agree, but I've always thought that low wind, unpotted humbuckers, do a perfect job of this. The reason being that the microphonic qualities of the pickup act like a microphone (well duhhh) to pick up the actual sound of the guitar. I have unpotted, A2 pickups in my SG and you can almost taste the mahogany. I also have a Seth Lover in my Dot and it really brings out the acoustic qualities of the guitar in a very musical way.

    "Microphonic" has negative connotations these days due, IMO, to the rock and heavy metal folks sometimes experiencing squealing and feedback because of their use of high gain and, thus, needing their pickups potted.

    I love unpotted humbuckers and I've never had a problem, but I'm not a high gain rock guy.

    Would unpotted P90s have the same advantages? Don't know, but I do know that unpotted humbuckers are wonderful.
    Last edited by darkwaters; 01-26-2021 at 01:30 PM.

  4. #3

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    There's more to this than "just" the guitar and the pickups: strings, even the pick unless you play fingerstyle. I'm actually not sure if there's a generally accepted definition for what's a "woody, hollow" sound. To me it means an acoustic/electric blend, implying so low electric volume that the acoustic, percussive qualities of the guitar get heard and felt. You may have to hit the strings harder to get the sensation. Roundwounds might help to get more color and timbre. And you might want to use both pickups if you have two. Archtops with floating pickups are simply brighter than an ES-175 for example. And trebles are part of a guitar's natural, acoustic sound. Finally, at the other end of the signal chain, you have your eventual preamp/effect (like Barnyard Jr), the amp and the speaker inside it. I have just tested a new speaker, the Jensen Blackbird 40 AlNiCo, in my TOOB cabs. It has tons of sparkling trebles, and I expected it to be a no-go for my ES-175. I was 180 degrees wrong!

    Back to "woody" sound. I'm tempted to use a whisky analogy. Traditional jazz guitar sound is like a smoky, peaty single malt. There are lighter, less bakelite-tasting single malt varieties of course, and then there's a whole array of blended stuff from a host of countries. The tasting notes often refer to various fruits. I think a good woody sound has a clear bass end, some fruity sparkle across the board and not too much emphasis on midrange, to keep the "brown" away. Alas, some amps have a direct relationship between the overall volume and the mid-eq setting.

  5. #4
    Interesting points and analogies! Especially the one about the "smokey, peaty, single malt"! My Gretsch could NEVER sound like that, I understand... to me, that's the L5 with the CC pickup into the tweed Deluxe that recorded Midnight Blue.

    But- yeah... you guys have the right idea of what I'm talking about!

    So this guitar has Filtertrons, which are low-wind humbuckers. I think they ARE potted, but Filtertrons are weak pickups compared to PAFs... due to their extremely low wind and narrower magnetic field, they are very mid-scooped... which IMO is part of the problem I'm having, as I hear "hollow and woody" as having alot of mids. I think the Filtertrons are the weak link in my particular chain. 6120 with Filtertrons > Princeton Reverb with a 12" speaker.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    Interesting points and analogies! Especially the one about the "smokey, peaty, single malt"! My Gretsch could NEVER sound like that, I understand... to me, that's the L5 with the CC pickup into the tweed Deluxe that recorded Midnight Blue.
    That tone you describe is one of my favorites of all time.

  7. #6

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    I like Dynasonics a lot. They do hum.



    Filtertrons are also good pickups. They are quite different that Gibson humbuckers in their design. The stereotype of the Filtertron for thin country playing can be traced to Chet Atkins. That was his style. Saying the Filtertron doesn't do old school jazz well is like saying the Tele can't do jazz solo work. Here's some detail on the Filtertron.



    Lastly, here's a pic of a guitar George Benson and Toty Viola custom ordered from Heritage specifically for jazz. Note the Filtertrons. This guitar is the first one with Filtertrons that opened my ears to how good they can sound.

    Getting the "most woody/hollow" sound out of electric archtop?-50355856721_34872b3a1a_c-jpg

  8. #7

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    I second the unpotted pickup being the most important factor. Mid content is taste dependent (flattop acoustic guitars have less, archtops acoustics have more) but a good bass level is also an important component of woodiness in my opinion.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    I like Dynasonics a lot. They do hum.



    Filtertrons are also good pickups. They are quite different that Gibson humbuckers in their design. The stereotype of the Filtertron for thin country playing can be traced to Chet Atkins. That was his style. Saying the Filtertron doesn't do old school jazz well is like saying the Tele can't do jazz solo work. Here's some detail on the Filtertron.



    Lastly, here's a pic of a guitar George Benson and Toty Viola custom ordered from Heritage specifically for jazz. Note the Filtertrons. This guitar is the first one with Filtertrons that opened my ears to how good they can sound.

    Getting the "most woody/hollow" sound out of electric archtop?-50355856721_34872b3a1a_c-jpg
    I know all about Filtertrons, I have been a Gretsch person for years. I've tried many variations of the design as well. I also like Dynasonics, and am considering giving them a try in my Gretsch... I had them in another guitar, so I know how good they sound, and they are not as mid-scooped as Filtertrons are... they are closer to low-wind P90s, imo. Or, perhaps, like P90s if P90s had pole magnets instead of a bar magnet.

    Honestly, I think I would just put TV Jones T-90s in this guitar and be done with it, but I really don't like the way they look. I would want to do dogear P90s, which would require risers to get the pickups to their proper height, as well as routing out the Filtertrons holes a little, and drilling new screw holes... just not sure I want to go that far.

    Tavo from Nocturne Brain did it.... and it's pretty sweet looking....

    Getting the "most woody/hollow" sound out of electric archtop?-tavo-hot-rod-p90-jpg

    lastly.. how in the world can you tell those are Filtertrons on Benson's guitar??? My eyesight may be starting to go, but in that pic, they are just a silver blur to me... could easily be PAFs...

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    I like Dynasonics a lot. They do hum.



    Filtertrons are also good pickups. They are quite different that Gibson humbuckers in their design. The stereotype of the Filtertron for thin country playing can be traced to Chet Atkins. That was his style. Saying the Filtertron doesn't do old school jazz well is like saying the Tele can't do jazz solo work. Here's some detail on the Filtertron.



    Lastly, here's a pic of a guitar George Benson and Toty Viola custom ordered from Heritage specifically for jazz. Note the Filtertrons. This guitar is the first one with Filtertrons that opened my ears to how good they can sound.

    Getting the "most woody/hollow" sound out of electric archtop?-50355856721_34872b3a1a_c-jpg
    The Filtertrons are great pickups and as their brothers from Gibson will sound different in different guitars. The specific construction of the famous Gretches of the 50's and early 60's is quite different from the Gibson models of the day so there ....
    BTW, is that Ralphe Armstrong on bass in that pic ? What a monster player.... saw him with McLaughlin and Michel Camillo, WOW !

  11. #10

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    To me a wooden bridge made a big difference in my cheap Ibanez Artcore AG75. Not a big investment and effort but maybe more impact than changing pickups?

  12. #11

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    lastly.. how in the world can you tell those are Filtertrons on Benson's guitar??? My eyesight may be starting to go, but in that pic, they are just a silver blur to me... could easily be PAFs...[/QUOTE]

    I own the guitar.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by guavajelly
    To me a wooden bridge made a big difference in my cheap Ibanez Artcore AG75. Not a big investment and effort but maybe more impact than changing pickups?
    I actually did this experiment several years ago, on an Epi Broadway. I had a wood bridge (the actual bridge, not the base) made out of rosewood. While there definitely WAS a difference in the wood bridge vs metal (both on wood archtop bridge bases), I didn't feel like it was that much of a difference. Plugged in, the differences were far less of course.... but yes, putting an all-wood bridge on a Gretsch 6120 would probably help make it sound "woodier", acoustically.

  14. #13

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  15. #14

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    And it looks like Stefan Kukurugya on keyboards.

  16. #15

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    I think that the archtop guitar with the floater does not sound wood-y at all. I think it sounds string-y. When I think of, for example, Johnny Smith's classic tone I hear strings rather than wood. When I think of a woody sound, it's a thunky guitar tone like Joe Pass on Intercontinental- that's a guitar with a body mounted pickup. To me a woody tone has that component that you were hear when you thump on the top of the guitar with your thumb. A floater is separated from that.

  17. #16

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    filtertrons can get super nice hollow jazz tone...heck even hi-lo's can!...but they need the right amp...pickier than most pickups!...they like old fenders!..i never heard them better than with fender browns...they match beautifully...

    also use a usa style stainless steel flatwound string...like labella or ghs...you don't have to go too heavy but a broken in flat will "hollow" the tone

    and judicious use of the guitars volume and tone knobs...or in gretschs case... and tone switches


    one of the greatest tones i've ever played/heard was a gretsch nashville with filtertrons into a brown deluxe!!! incredible!...from warm jazz tones to lou reed crunch

    cheers

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    filtertrons can get super nice hollow jazz tone...heck even hi-lo's can!...but they need the right amp...pickier than most pickups!...they like old fenders!..i never heard them better than with fender browns...they match beautifully...
    s
    That's very interesting, because I recently picked up a Supro Tremoverb (one of the new ones), and it IMMEDIATELY sounded better with the Supro than with my PRRI... the Supro is definitely more mid-forward, with a more rounded high end than the (blackface) Princeton.

  19. #18

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    Getting the "most woody/hollow" sound out of electric archtop?-toob-jazz-testing-2101-jpgAt the risk of still not understanding what is meant by a woody, hollow sound, a quick summary of my cab testing today. The main finding: the guitar & PU do matter an awful lot. Played through a Raezer's Edge Luna 200R and two different TOOB cabs loaded with the new Jensen Blackbird 40 AlNiCo, my three 16" archtops may be summarized as follows:

    - ES-175 1959 VOS: strong, balanced, pleasant, generic electric reference
    - Benedetto Bravo: ditto, but slightly more midrangey/nasal (Benedetto A6 PU)
    - Ibanez AFJ-91: Super 58 PU weaker but giving more timbre and acoustic feel; extremely pleasant

    The EPI Casino Coupe was also just fine.

    No wonder the Ibanez remains my go-to guitar should gigs resume during my lifetime. Jet blue, it's also a visual treat for the rather senior audiences of our old boys' band.
    Last edited by Gitterbug; 01-27-2021 at 03:53 PM.

  20. #19

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    Strings, pick, saddle, pickup height, guitar vs amp volume.

  21. #20

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    Most bases are already covered here but I'll add one other factor that I think makes a huge difference: technique. A lot of the players who have a very "acoustic" quality in their tone got their chops playing acoustic archtop. I'm thinking of Charlie Christian and Oscar Moore, as well as some contemporary players. They learned technique on guitars that required more physical power in the right hand than electrics require, and when they took up the electric guitar they brought a lot of that technique with them. If you're working on getting this sound, a good idea is to practice unplugged or on an acoustic archtop. Set up your guitar for acoustic playing and focus your technique to get a good, loud, strong sound with a lot of dynamics, and then plug in while trying to keep the same playing style. You will not need to turn your amp up as much because you are hitting harder. Think of it this way: if you set your amp high, and you have a light attack, you have a narrower dynamic range, which gets a very smooth / "electric" tone (think john stowell, ed bickert, bill frisell). In contrast, if you set your amp lower and play with a more varied attack and more force on some notes, your electric tone will have a wider dynamic range and it will sound more acoustic because you are playing with a more acoustic-oriented technique.

  22. #21

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    Tonal vocabulary gets in the way. 'Woody' is such a subjective term. Don't have a better term. I think what many think of is something like a Gibson L5 into a Fender Twin.

    As for making an ES175 sound more hollow, seems a pickup swap would make it sound a bit different. But not necessarily more hollow. Better EQ and a more acoustic amp might work. Dual source would work but is a relative PIA to implement.

    It's a good question and I'm sure this has been solved short of using a mic.

    Ruger - Do I recall you having a Roland Artist Cube? If so, what tone capsule are you running? It's not cheap, but the 'Sparkly' one seems to work well for getting more 'woody' out of the guitar for me.

  23. #22

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    Under wound uncovered non potted pickups. And depending on the balance of tone pick a magnet type that suits you. I would use a humbucker style of pick up being they have less hum. If you really want the acoustic sound to come thru use a Piezo and mix it with the pickups.

  24. #23

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    You could try using acoustic strings.

  25. #24
    WOODY:

    In this video, the Godin is easily the most WOODY-sounding instrument, to my ears. Most of the others sound like a variation of an ES-175... meaning, a "standard PAF archtop"... the Godin has something different going on. And those pickups are also top-mounted... is just because they are P90s? Is because they are single coils instead of humbuckers? Is the wood/construction? Because it's the same guy, with the same technique, playing the same licks....



  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410

    Ruger - Do I recall you having a Roland Artist Cube? If so, what tone capsule are you running? It's not cheap, but the 'Sparkly' one seems to work well for getting more 'woody' out of the guitar for me.
    I do, it's my classic rock cover band amp. I have the Ultimate Blues tone capsule in it, which is a Fender Super on the clean side and a Marshall Super Lead on the dirty side. It's perfect for that. It stays at the rehearsal space, I've never tired my Gretsch with it... but I suspect I would like it with NO tone capsule for jazzy archtop tones (it comes stock with no capsule, which means it's voiced like a Tweed Bassman as stock).