Modern Archtop tone. Is this it?

[Kirk1701]

I'd have to be offered a lot of money. This was a great find. I actually hope the wood isn't TOO old to be used. I'm not inflexibly opposed to selling, but it would need to be enough to compensate my original purpose and make me feel good about giving up on ever using it.

I don't see how age would affect the wood's usability. However, if the plates and rims have dried out, warping might've occurred. It might not hurt to get a luthier's opinion on it. Maybe they could glue it up for you and you could finish it up when you're ready.

[christianm77]

If it works out I would imagine a guitar made of that wood would sound mega

[Jonah]

I'm not sure about "modern" but it sounds like roundwound bronze strings to me. Lots of high-frequency definition, crispness, and twang. I'm sure a broken-in set of flatwounds would yield a rounder, more traditional tone. But I do like that tone.

Opening post vid has acoustic guitar there. I think I would not put flatwoulnds on acoustic archtop
As for the topic.. to me one of the particular features (and adavantages) of acoustic archtop is more 'readable' harmonic texture... which together with tension makes some kind of resistance to the touch...

When I play archtops I hear every note much more as separate - and paradoxally despite of the fact that archtops have less sustain I usually hear and control the ending of the note much better than with flattops - where you often just let it sound and create some 'sonic clouds'...


I think today archtops have lots of 'vintage flavour' that is contained much in how they look and feel physically - much more than how they sound...

Modern conception of sound in general is much more delicate and nuanced in articulation and dynamics- affected by classical school... no surprise that they (me too probably) tend to make archtop sound that way too.

Old school players were much more brutal... jazz in its prime has always been to me some combination of kitchy brutality, natural agressive passion and refined sophistication, good taste, exquisite musical culture of expression...
that is some kind of paradoxal combination that makes it so unique. No other mass music style had it.

Old chool jazz players are some kind of spiritual aristocrates to me)))

As for archtops

- when I play lines it sounds to me more like voice or melodic instrument
- when I play chords I can compare it with a group of brass instruments
- when you comp struming it has more percussive effect

with good flattops it is just more like you play a traditional plucked famility instruments...
you have many resonant processes, overtones to control (or to involve into playing)


I once said to my friend that actually I put jazz archtops away from other guitars including classicals or acoustic steel string guitar... it is just a very different type of instrument to me.

[christianm77]

Your best bet for a 'traditional' acoustic guitar tone is a set of Monel bronze strings such as the Martin Retro strings. These strings are the closest available to those used on guitars back in the pre war heyday of acoustic archtops, although scarcely in the extreme gauges favoured by many players.

Tonally, these are somewhere between a fresh set of Bronzes and flatwounds.

However in general I dislike Phosphor Bronze strings on any guitar. The best thing that can be said for them is that they look nice. In terms of tonal characteristics they create a false sense of volume initially due to their initial brightness which they rapidly lose. With monels and nickel bronzes how they sound initially is how they sound for their playing lives. As a result I tend to put Monel or nickel bronze strings on my flat top as well. I find TI bebop's to have similar characteristics.

Flatwounds sound less loud than round wounds although it has been debated whether this is the case. Flatwounds post date the acoustic archtop era, so don't represent a choice players who actually had to play acoustically would have made; YMMV on whether you like the tone. Playing acoustic ('brutally') I would question whether flat wounds would stand up to the punishment I would mete out to them as even TI round wound 'bebop' strings can fail quickly. Recently as I've concentrated more on recording and solo guitar, and relaxing my tendency to beat the crap out rhythm guitar far too much, TI bebop strings have borne up great.

[christianm77]

BTW I would think of TI bebop strings as a 'modern choice' as well on a carved guitar; they are what Gilad Heckselman uses, for example. (He uses the exact same strings as I do, gauge 13s, as I think does Pasquale Grasso, judging from the time I tried his guitar at a gig and his set up felt very similar to mine, which is annoying.) I think Lage Lund uses them too?

I think Peter Bernstein uses nickel roundwounds? Similar gauge/tension, heavier top perhaps (different make.)

I'm struggling to think of a well known contemporary style player who uses flatwounds?

[Jonah]

I made correction there... I meant of course that I would not put flatwounds on an acoustic guitar (I do not use flatwounds on elctric guitars either by the way)

[christianm77]

I made correction there... I meant of course that I would not put flatwounds on an acoustic guitar (I do not use flatwounds on elctric guitars either by the way)

I thought I was a round wound guy, and then my ES175 was like, NO.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple points of clarification on the string discussion.

• Martin Retros (Monel) are primarily a nickel/copper alloy with traces of iron, manganese, carbon and silicon. They are not bronze strings.
• D'Addario Nickel Bronze strings are D'Addario Phosphor Bronze 92/8 strings with the addition of a nickel deposition coating.

As I mentioned in a prior post, I have a number of luthier made carved archtops that were built for acoustic play and for lower volume amplified solo play. The same guitar with different strings will indeed sound quite different (surprise, surprise ). The amount of sustain and overtones will be directly affected by this choice. Sustain is also influenced by the the gage of the B and E strings (lighter = longer sustain and heavier = shorter, but fatter sounding trebles)

Some of my archtops sound best with 80/20 bronze strings, others with Phosphor Bronze 92/8 strings and some with Monel strings. Monel strings are acoustically more interesting than nickel electric strings but are noisier due to their larger diameter winding wire. Some of the newer extended life strings in the PB and 80/20 categories can reduce string noise and also sound good. For electric play, I find TI BeBops with their small winding diameter wire to be the quietest, longest lasting with great tone. These also sound descent when playing acoustically. So they are a good compromise string for dual use.

My $.02

[mr. beaumont]

I'm struggling to think of a well known contemporary style player who uses flatwounds?

I can't think of any, at least who play in a truly contemporary style.

I have to have both. A guitar with rounds, a guitar with flats.

As for acoustic archtops, I'm in to 80/20's.

[Jonah]

I thought I was a round wound guy, and then my ES175 was like, NO.

well... though I never really played ES175 except for half an hour noodling at the shop once in a while... I guess I can undestand what you mean.

[omphalopsychos]

I can't think of any, at least who play in a truly contemporary style.

Miles Okazaki.

[sgosnell]

John Pizzarelli uses flats - actually nylon tape-wounds.

[christianm77]

Okazaki is a good catch! Maybe his 175 had the same opinion as mine?

Not sure John P is ‘contemporary style’ tho, super player though he is :-)

[Tal_175]

Miles Okazaki.

His ES 175 sounds very bright. May be because of the CC pickup.

[sgosnell]

Not sure John P is ‘contemporary style’ tho, super player though he is :-)

Well, he's alive. That's contemporary enough for me.

[omphalopsychos]

His ES 175 sounds very bright. May be because of the CC pickup.

He mics the guitar, and his picking technique produces a clear sound.

[Woody Sound]

I suspect that I would enjoy playing that guitar......with flatwound strings.

Surely you jest. Flats on a an acoustic archtop? Heresey!

[Stringswinger]

Surely you jest. Flats on a an acoustic archtop? Heresey!

Consider me a proud iconoclast. All 4 of my acoustic archtops are strung with flats and will remain so during the term of my guardianship of them.

[coolvinny]

His ES 175 sounds very bright. May be because of the CC pickup.

Hmmm....to me the wound strings don't sound bright at all. They sound like I expect them to as flats.

[Jonah]

John Pizzarelli uses flats - actually nylon tape-wounds.

Those crazy black strings.. look like La Bella nylons???. when there is not much amplification and he is just mic- ed they sound insanely dead to me((

[Jonah]

Hmmm....to me the wound strings don't sound bright at all. They sound like I expect them to as flats.

When I was a 8year old kid flatewounds were called just 'those really bad strings' ...

Sorry... different culture

[christianm77]

I think some people really like a dull thud.

[omphalopsychos]

I think some people really like a dull thud.

It's easier on the audience trying to talk over the background music.

[Chazmo]

It's easier on the audience trying to talk over the background music.

From someone who has played a lot of restaurant gigs over the years, all I can say is "ouch!"