Did Kemper Just Solve their “Cab” and “Speaker” Problems?

**NSJ** · 08-23-2020, 09:06 AM

I just ordered the new Kemper Kabinet and speaker Kone, that emulates 19 famous guitar speakers (what they call speaker “Imprints”) . Did Christoph Kemper and team just solve all the issues they had playing their digital amp in the room tone through dead, lifeless FRFRs that never sounded quite like “guitar speakers”?

**icr** · 08-23-2020, 09:35 AM

Did Christoph Kemper and team just solve all the issues they had playing their digital amp in the room tone through dead, lifeless FRFRs that never sounded quite like “guitar speakers”?

Don't know anything about it. Let us know if it is solved, though.

**Gitterbug** · 08-23-2020, 02:53 PM

As a cab maker I have to tread carefully and neutrally. The modeling amp/IR world is confusing, especially to seniors like myself. My reading is that Kemper has introduced, in fact more than a year ago, a conventional passive speaker cabinet loaded with a max. 200W full range, flat response speaker designed and made by Celestion for them. The different sounds come from Kemper's highly praised preamp, and must be amplified by a power amp, whether inside Kemper's powered version or separate. The speaker has to be neutral; otherwise it would add another layer of color to the modelings. The guitarist's blessing is the lack of a tweeter present in most PA speakers.

Kemper offers a 2x12 and 4x12 version as well, or at least sell the speakers separately for builders and swappers. Today, most larger venues have their own PA systems, in which case the cab's role is that of a personal/stage monitor. No need for multiple speakers for the "amp in the room" touch and feel IMHO.

The price of the Kab, about 400 euros, as well as the stated weights of the Kab and the Kone, suggest the cabinet is made of poplar or okoumé plywood, while the speaker has a ferrite magnet. Lighter alternatives do exist, employing Celestion's or Jensen's Neo FRFR speakers. In my experience, a much smaller speaker also fulfills the personal monitor role.

**jzucker** · 08-23-2020, 08:12 PM

still sounds bright to me. One of the problems with all the modeling amps is that they sound too bright in the high end. In this case WAY TOO BRIGHT and too much bottom.

**jzucker** · 08-23-2020, 08:14 PM

alternatively, run it through a real, open back cabinet. It's still ridiculous that the entire modeling world is convinced you need a cabinet that goes to 18k or 20k when almost every guitar speaker ever made reproduces almost nothing above 5k

**Gitterbug** · 08-24-2020, 03:21 AM

If the modeling has been done right, there's next to nothing above 5k in the incoming signal. Kemper somehow complicates their message by speaking of the Kab and the Kone in parallel, under separate headings, whereas one houses the other. The speaker specs are scant but not a 100% match to Celestion's 12" FR model, so it's not just label engineering. I have experience of the Jensen N12D, which extends to 10k. Not recommended for ordinary guitar cabs/combos but works when plugged to a Kemper, with the BAM200 as the power amp. The bass end depends a lot on the cab configuration. However, all testing so far has been done by rock guitarists whose ideal tones are a world apart from my jazzy cleans.

**jzucker** · 08-24-2020, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Gitterbug

If the modeling has been done right, there's next to nothing above 5k in the incoming signal. Kemper somehow complicates their message by speaking of the Kab and the Kone in parallel, under separate headings, whereas one houses the other. The speaker specs are scant but not a 100% match to Celestion's 12" FR model, so it's not just label engineering. I have experience of the Jensen N12D, which extends to 10k. Not recommended for ordinary guitar cabs/combos but works when plugged to a Kemper, with the BAM200 as the power amp. The bass end depends a lot on the cab configuration. However, all testing so far has been done by rock guitarists whose ideal tones are a world apart from my jazzy cleans.

a few thoughts...

It's not just "rock guitarists" but in particular nu-metal guitars because that's what dominates the industry these days.
Secondly, regardless of what the state of modeling-done-right is, we don't need Full Range speakers. We we need is a flat guitar speaker. Unfortunately, the entire modeling industry is brainwashed to think we need a full range speaker. A friend of mine gets great sounds out of his modeling amp using an EV speaker. Not perfectly flag but less color than your typical stamped frame speaker. But if I ever jump into the modeling frey again, I'd do it with a guitar cab. The IRs are the weak link in realism IMO...
Regardless of whether your model is done right, the problem with realistic tones out of a FRFR cab is that the crossover point is too low. Many of them cross over below 1k while some go up to 2k before crossing over. What this means is that your 12" speaker is handling the low end like a woofer and your tiny midrange horn or tweeter is handling a huge component of your sound that you are used to hearing with a 12" or 10" (or even 8") speaker. This is one reason the FRFR cabs sound so terrible if you're used to a guitar cab.
I recently bought a bass cab. I had been looking and looking to find a full range bass cab because I've been brainwashed into thinking that's what you needed for bass. Turns out the same common sense applies. I bought a Raezer's Edge bass cab with no crossover, no tweeter and it sounds great and is super light weight.

**Gitterbug** · 08-24-2020, 03:53 PM

JZ, I agree with you. Just pointing out that the Kab houses only the Kone, which has no coaxial tweeter and, hence, no crossover point. Kemper lingo states that the Kone's cone (sic!) has been formed to enhance the "amp-in-the-room" feeling, whatever that means. Probably a narrower beam than from a typical PA cab.

On bass speakers: I only know some Neo variants. The Celestion BN12-300S is actually a great jazz guitar speaker, reaching officially 4k but dropping steeply only after 5k. The guitar's high E string does a bit over 1,300k on 24th fret, so plenty of room for audible (or imaginary) harmonics. The response curve is far more linear than a typical guitar speaker's. Bass guitarists using my TOOB 12B half-open, 10 lbs cab have been surprised to note that it even handles Marcus Miller type stuff with no need for a tweeter. The BN10-200X is another potential FR replacement. It has a more pronounced treble spike around 2k, again outside the guitar's primary range. Some bass speakers sound "brown" and nasal for guitar; these less so.

**jzucker** · 08-24-2020, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Gitterbug

JZ, I agree with you. Just pointing out that the Kab houses only the Kone, which has no coaxial tweeter and, hence, no crossover point. Kemper lingo states that the Kone's cone (sic!) has been formed to enhance the "amp-in-the-room" feeling, whatever that means. Probably a narrower beam than from a typical PA cab.

On bass speakers: I only know some Neo variants. The Celestion BN12-300S is actually a great jazz guitar speaker, reaching officially 4k but dropping steeply only after 5k. The guitar's high E string does a bit over 1,300k on 24th fret, so plenty of room for audible (or imaginary) harmonics. The response curve is far more linear than a typical guitar speaker's. Bass guitarists using my TOOB 12B half-open, 10 lbs cab have been surprised to note that it even handles Marcus Miller type stuff with no need for a tweeter. The BN10-200X is another potential FR replacement. It has a more pronounced treble spike around 2k, again outside the guitar's primary range. Some bass speakers sound "brown" and nasal for guitar; these less so.

I should try the BN300S again. I tried one early on in a quilter blockdock cab but that cab is so small, i'm not sure it does the speaker justice. Another issue we sometimes forget about is that due to psycho-acoustics, our ears are used to the way classic speakers sound like the celestions, emminence, jensen, etc. This is one reason we often dislike neo speakers. So, to me the BN300 sounds so different from what my ear is used to I did not like it but I think it may be due to it just not being something my ear is used to.

By the same token, the raezer's edge basslite 1x12 I have (with eminence neo speaker) sounds great but my ears aren't used to the way it sounds with a guitar even though looking at the speaker graph, it should be fine! I think a speaker is more than just what it looks like on a freq graph as you well know!

**Eck** · 08-25-2020, 04:12 AM

Of course one issue I personally keep forgetting is that speakers often perform entirely different at different volumes. No frequency response diagram helps with that, or with transients.

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**jzucker** · 08-25-2020, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Eck

Of course one issue I personally keep forgetting is that speakers often perform entirely different at different volumes. No frequency response diagram helps with that, or with transients.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not only that but the enclosure matters. The graph and transient response will change depending on that. For example, a speaker mounted in a toob enclosure will sound radically different from one mounted in a deluxe reverb cab and from one mounted in a closed and ported cab. No way to determine that unfortunately.

**NSJ** · 08-25-2020, 10:56 AM

All right, I tried it out. Initial impressions:

I’m not a techie, I gotta really learn to tweak so many parameters;
The very clean pre-sets (Princeton Clean, etc.) don’t sound distorted or growling. But so many others still do, even compared to regular FRFRs and even with the gain completely off.

The pickup on my guitar (Lollar CC) has to be all the way up to get acceptable levels of volume. Unlike where I really like it, as in the Deluxe Reverb Tone Master (with as little volume from the guitar and as much of a volume from the amp). Anybody know the reason why this is or could be.

Doesn’t sound as good-clean-sparkling as the Deluxe Reverb Tone Master, but I think I also have to really learn how to tweak a bunch of settings. This is only a first impression.

**jzucker** · 08-25-2020, 11:27 AM

My advise would be to forget about cabinet modeling unless you're direct recording. For practicing or playing live, you will always get a better sound running through even a SS power amp and guitar cabinet. And it's not even close.

Originally Posted by NSJ

All right, I tried it out. Initial impressions:

I’m not a techie, I gotta really learn to tweak so many parameters;
The very clean pre-sets (Princeton Clean, etc.) don’t sound distorted or growling. But so many others still do, even compared to regular FRFRs and even with the gain completely off.

The pickup on my guitar (Lollar CC) has to be all the way up to get acceptable levels of volume. Unlike where I really like it, as in the Deluxe Reverb Tone Master (with as little volume from the guitar and as much of a volume from the amp). Anybody know the reason why this is or could be.

Doesn’t sound as good-clean-sparkling as the Deluxe Reverb Tone Master, but I think I also have to really learn how to tweak a bunch of settings. This is only a first impression.

**NSJ** · 08-25-2020, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

My advise would be to forget about cabinet modeling unless you're direct recording. For practicing or playing live, you will always get a better sound running through even a SS power amp and guitar cabinet. And it's not even close.

yeah that’s why I kept the Kemper. Direct in recording to DAW. No mics needed. Works really well in that way.