The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 45
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Dear Jazzers,

    Recently, I got a bunch of old photos from relatives and came across a young man playing an archtop. This guy was probably my Grand-Pa brother and he died much before my birth. Could some one help me identify what archtop it could be?

    Help me identify this old archtop-archtop-unidentified-jpg

    All the clues I have:
    - My family lived in Italian Piemont (40 km from Torino). It's not too far from Austria and Bavarian alps (german luthiers ?).
    - My Grand-Pa was born in 1886. I have no idea when this picture was taken. Before or after world war 1 ?

    Could it be a Framus or an Este, or something like that ?

    Thanks a million.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    I swear the headstock logo looks a little bit like Gibson. I can't quite make it out, though, even zoomed in as far as I can go. But it doesn't look like anything close to the names you mentioned.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Radiotone?

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    To me, period rather than make is intriguing. Impeccable crease in the trousers. F-hole archtops were supposedly uncommon if non-existent before the 1930s. But do we see any holes in the photo? The peghead with the thick, white whatevers looks like from a far newer classical guitar. The bridge is broad for a floating one. Fine bindings, confusing fret markers. The other guitar in the photo, with its slanted-end fretboard, gives a further clue. However, due to the WW II halting everything, '30s to early '50s are hard to tell apart.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    I see f holes, at least on the bass side, when zoomed in. It's hard to see, but it's there. It's a very wide bridge base, and at first I thought it was a standard flat-top bridge, but there is a tailpiece. I can't tell whether the top is arched, but it's definitely an f-hole type with floating bridge. Beyond that, I haven't a clue. The headstock logo seems to start with a G, and perhaps ends with go, but I can't be sure. I tried saving the image and blowing it up, and also using a magnifying glass on the unzoomed image, but I can't make out the logo name. My knowledge of early European guitars is nil, and of American guitars very limited, so I hesitate to speculate more.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Millions thanks for your help,

    Just to make it clear, my guess is that the photo was made in Italian Piemont or possibly on the other side of the Alps, on the French part (near a city called Volx). That's where my family was settled at that time.

    As for the period the photo was taken, I really don't know. First half of XXs century that the best I can guess. I will inquire to my relatives, I have an old cousin who's passed 90s and she might well know something.

    I was also temped to read something like Gibson on the headstock, but it is almost impossible. Gibson instruments wouldn't be accessible for farmers and workers in Europe at that time. Even later in the 60's for musicians living in Paris, Gibsons were extremely hard to get.

    The archtop might also have been crafted by some local factory...

    Again, many thanks.
    Last edited by Fred Archtop; 08-10-2020 at 04:22 PM.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Hi Fred,
    That region in the world is one of the most prolific for Building Stringed Instruments.
    A dear friend of mine grew up on that region in the 1940's. For centuries, His ancestors worked in the Violin building villages near Cremona. There are literally thousands of Luthiers who's families worked in the violin factories since the 1500's. You may be looking at a picture of a guitar built by one of those families.
    Ironically, my father told me although that we are actually mostly Napolitano but we are also partly Piedmontese..
    We might be related Freddy!
    Joe D

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    What would jazz guitar be without Italians and Italian-Americans, both as builders and players?

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Help me identify this old archtop-archtop-unidentified-jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    What would jazz guitar be without Italians and Italian-Americans, both as builders and players?
    Jazz guitar would have developed just fine without the Italians and Italian-Americans. While a handful of important Italian-American builders helped advance and evolve the form, they are not central to its origins. As well, plenty of folks from other cultures have also advanced the form. I'm unaware of any significant archtop guitar-building based in Italy prior to the 1960s.

    The modern archtop guitar, as developed by Gibson, and subsequently popularized by Gibson and Epiphone in the 1930s, had very little traction in Europe. But their guitars were seen at trade shows, and a few builders and distributors became interested in the 1930s, mostly in German-speaking parts of Europe, as well as a bit of activity in Nordic countries. Relatively inexpensive archtops were developed by Hofner, who built instruments mostly for export, mostly to the UK. Otmar Windisch (
    Otwin) made some higher-end as well as inexpensive archtops, heavily influenced by Epiphone designs. Felix Staerke (ESTE) made some higher-end instruments. Franz Hirsch made some higher-end instruments. In particular, he built for Wenzel Rossmeisl, who started up the Roger company in the 1930s and was a performing jazz guitarist with a passion for jazz and archtop guitars. These were all very small scale operations compared to Gibson and Epiphone in the US.

    As well, there is a rich history of European makers exporting complete instruments and parts all over the world, including to the US, where a variety of US distributors and wholesalers completed or resold instruments, including many guitars.

    The guitar in question exhibits various features that suggest German or more likely Czech origin, most likely built in the area around Schonbach in the later 1930s or (less likely) late 1940s. Best to call it Bohemia, which is how it was often referred to at the time. The guitar looks quite elegant, with nice proportions. A few things to consider, some of which are guesswork, all of which are consistent with the likelihood of Bohemian (Czech/German) origin:
    -the neck meets the body at the 14th fret;
    -the headstock is slotted, with classical-style rollers;
    -the inlays are sparse;
    -the end of the fretboard has rounded corners, and the fretboard generally appears to be fairly wide;
    -the fretboard appears to be elevated from the body;
    -the body appears to be @16" wide, or close;
    -the pickguard has a distinctive point as typically used on German archtop guitars. I'm not sure who designed it, but Hofner used it extensively.

    And, yeah, the wide bridge base is a bit of a head-scratcher.

    As far what jazz guitar be without Italian and Italian-American players, I'll take a pass on that speculation.

    Last edited by Hammertone; 10-28-2020 at 10:15 PM.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    gibson started f hole archtops in 1922..under lloyd loar...l-5

    the headstock does look like it says gibson!...hah

    luck

    cheers

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for all these invaluable inputs and comments !

    If I magnify the table of the archtop, I see clearly the holes but they do not seem f-shaped. Is it just me or what?

    Best to you.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Some old Italian brands:




    Judging from the logo that seems to start with a G (or C?) if it is Italian, there are several candidates:
    - Galanti
    - Gemelli
    - Gherson
    - Crucianelli

    (And there are probably more).

    But I agree with Hammertone that it has German (Bavarian) appointments.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Joe- We were in that area in Italy hiking in the Dolomites in August 2019. We passed near Cremona and hiked among many Italian spruce forests that often served as wood for soundboards for those Italian luthiers. It is a magical region. Was thinking of all of those guitars and violins that were built in that part of the world. There is a wonderful museum in Venice featuring instruments that were played in the centuries after Vivaldi (he spent most of his career in Venice) that include many lutes and very early guitars built in those areas too. To think this knowledge was passed down to a couple of luthiers in NYC that built the archtops that we love to dream about is really something.
    Dan

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    [QUOTE=Hammertone;1053637]Help me identify this old archtop-archtop-unidentified-jpg

    Jazz guitar would have developed just fine without the Italians and Italian-Americans. While a handful of important Italian-American builders helped advance and evolve the form, they are not central to its origins. ]

    My bad? I, apparently mistakenly, thought that D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, Benedetto, Buscarino, Campellone, Marchione and a few others were Italian names. Did/do they just copy Gibsons, with no contribution of their own? Would classical violins have developed "just fine" without a few luthiers in Cremona? Advancing and evolving the form is of course central, but so is perfecting the craftmanship. As for players, the list is exceedingly long. Mind you, Joe Pass's last name was originally Passalaqua.




  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Hi Dan,
    That must have been a great trip and thanks for sharing that.
    Ronaldo Orlandoni is one of them. 85 years young and still going strong.
    He managed to set some time aside and become a professional Soccer player before he came to America to build guitars for KISS, Peter Frampton, Johnny Winters and Greg Allman. When I spend time with him, I feel its the closest I will come to an Angel in this lifetime.
    Thanks Dan.
    JD

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    [QUOTE=Gitterbug;1053898]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Help me identify this old archtop-archtop-unidentified-jpg

    Jazz guitar would have developed just fine without the Italians and Italian-Americans. While a handful of important Italian-American builders helped advance and evolve the form, they are not central to its origins. ]

    My bad? I, apparently mistakenly, thought that D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, Benedetto, Buscarino, Campellone, Marchione and a few others were Italian names. Did/do they just copy Gibsons, with no contribution of their own? Would classical violins have developed "just fine" without a few luthiers in Cremona? Advancing and evolving the form is of course central, but so is perfecting the craftmanship. As for players, the list is exceedingly long. Mind you, Joe Pass's last name was originally Passalaqua.

    Hahaaa..
    Gitterbug, I love both of your posts. Makes me proud. We didn't invent pasta either. We only perfected the use of it..

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    [QUOTE=Max405;1053903]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug

    Hahaaa..
    Gitterbug, I love both of your posts. Makes me proud. We didn't invent pasta either. We only perfected the use of it..
    Corretto. A Marco Polo brought the pasta from China. But you (or was it Lee Iacocca's mom?) did invent pizza.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Now that we have almost solved the origin of this old archtop I'm glad this thread is turning into italian cooking...I visited Napoli 4 years ago. It was so much enjoyable. You can have a great meal for 2 euros by the streets: 1 € for a "pizza portafoglio" and 1 € for a nonetheless tasty "Baba o Rhum". My family originated from Piemonte and Tuscany but I was born in Marseille, south of France which looks like a Little Napoli. I'm sure my love for music comes from them.

    Be safe and take care.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Jazz guitar would have developed just fine without the Italians and Italian-Americans. While a handful of important Italian-American builders helped advance and evolve the form, they are not central to its origins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gitterbug
    My bad? I, apparently mistakenly, thought that D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, Benedetto, Buscarino, Campellone, Marchione and a few others were Italian names. Did/do they just copy Gibsons, with no contribution of their own? Would classical violins have developed "just fine" without a few luthiers in Cremona? Advancing and evolving the form is of course central, but so is perfecting the craftmanship. As for players, the list is exceedingly long. Mind you, Joe Pass's last name was originally Passalaqua

    You are not mistaken in that the list you provided is indeed of Italian names.

    Your comment regarding classical violins has nothing to do with the subject at hand. And, as far as players go, I typically demur regarding discussions of the "what if" kind when it comes to individual expressions of artistry.

    Back to the archtop guitar, most of these makers worked/work very much in the tradition of archtop guitar making, and made/make excellent acoustic archtop guitars, but their contributions to the design of the archtop guitar are not particularly consequential for the most part, IMO.
    They did indeed "copy" Gibson (and Epiphone), and their individual contributions as independent luthiers are based on the specific aesthetic appeal of their instruments as well as the quality of their work.

    I think that Jimmy D'Aquisto is the exception here - later in his life he began to incorporate some features that evolved the design of the archtop guitar. He stripped away much of the functionally meaningless decoration that had traditionally been associated with the instrument, but ended up adding his own functionally meaningless decoration. He investigated the effects of different soundhole designs, something that others had done as well. He popularized
    wood as a material for tailpieces. He developed different bridge designs, which have not been widely adopted.

    Other than that, these builders worked/work very much within the envelope of already developed, standard acoustic archtop design, and their well-deserved legacies are specifically based on the quality and excellence of their work.
    Last edited by Hammertone; 08-14-2020 at 05:58 PM.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Hi everybody
    I have been lurking for a while then it's time to take the plunge!
    When I saw Fred's photo, it reminded me something i had in my documents.

    Attachment 74736

    And that's what i found

    I had registered it (wrongly?) as Miroglio (an early sicilian luthier as Carmelo Catania or Calace) but seems very Markneukirchen style . It was probably from an auction in Bonhams London .Anyway there have been some relationship between luthiers in Europe as you can see in the very well made site Fetishguitars

    Monzino - Garlandini - Fetishguitars.com

    Carlo Monzino from Milano was in apprenticeship in Mirecourt and Markneukirchen in the late 1920s.

    So is this guitar italian made, or imported and sold in northern Italy as were Colettis and Radiotones in UK ?

  22. #21

    User Info Menu



    Tuck Andress trying out a 7-string archtop? Nopes, Martin Marais, French viola da gamba virtuoso, in a painting from 1704. While there's no question about Orville Gibson's seminal importance in the evolution, and commercial success, of the archtop guitar, his first and only patent from 1896 - for mandolin, not guitar- was not the only one in the period. I'm inclined to think that the resulting step change was not as much within luthiery - carrying carved tops from the violin family to mandolins and guitars - as in making use of patent legislation in the spirit of the day.

    Other makers would have been free to copy Gibson's design from 1916 onwards, and probably did, but guitar was a marginal orchestra instrument then. It took more than a decade, and Lloyd Loar's introduction of the f-holes, for the archtop guitar to defeat the banjo as the main harmonic rhythm instrument.

    Did Gibson ever try to patent the f-holes for a guitar? A carryover from the violin family similar to the arched top. If yes, they were unsuccessful. Otherwise, when the halcyon days of the acoustic archtop started around 1930, Gibson would have been alone in the game.

    As a further thought: It was the evolution and viral spread of jazz, a truly American contribution to popular music, that made luthiers the world over to develop their own lines of archtop guitars in a very short span of time. No way they all had access to Gibson's blueprints. The music and the instrument were a perfect match, and electrification opened a new, soloistic role for the guitar. All this during a decade marred by the Great Depression at start and the outbreak of WWII towards the end.

    Apologies for digressing from the thread's main theme. And more apologies if all this has been dealt with ad nauseam in previous threads.
    Last edited by Gitterbug; 08-13-2020 at 07:06 AM. Reason: Further speculation

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JFranck
    ...When I saw Fred's photo, it reminded me something i had in my documents.
    ...So is this guitar italian made, or imported and sold in northern Italy as were Colettis and Radiotones in UK ?
    Welcome. This guitar is unquestionably from the same maker as that posted above. Most likely Bohemian.
    Attached Images Attached Images Help me identify this old archtop-mystery-archtop-jpg 
    Last edited by Hammertone; 08-13-2020 at 12:58 PM.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Yes but look:

    :Help me identify this old archtop-carbonell-archtop-36-1-jpgHelp me identify this old archtop-carbonell-archtop-36-4-jpg
    this guitar is dated from 1936
    Arturo Carbonell went from Valencia (Spain) and opened his workshop in Marseille around 1920
    He built a lot of highly regarded classical guitars and some Selmer style and archtops .

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Dear all,

    @JFranck: great pictures and input! So the guitar of my ancester might well have been built in Marseille. As I wrote before, part of my family was in Italian Piedmont whereas the other had already imigrated in France (Volx, French Alps), and I don't know if the photo was taken in Italy or France. From your pictures, I believe the photo was taken in the French Alps, a region clearly under the influence of the local capital Marseille situated more in the south. So this guitar was probably bought to this luthier in Marseille and used in Volx...

    @Hammertone: you're so much more than an hofnerologist! Thanks for your invaluable pieces of information.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Fred : just a possibility ! but your uncle's guitar looks a lot like this one Help me identify this old archtop-miroglio-guitar-jpg
    typicaly reminiscent of a Mitteleuropa guitar sold in UK !