The Death of the American Archtop

[jads57]

The markup in SUVs is much more for the car companies than the sedans. This is the same in an opposite direction for Gibson. Les Paul especially Historic 1950's models are much more profitable than a building an L-5CES.

Way cheaper to make and less time and training for the work force. To pay skilled labor who are capable of carving tops and backs is probably quite expensive.
Plus who plays Archtops? Jazz musicians and they have no money to spend.

What's , most ironic is people who pay archtop prices for a bolt on Tele or Strat CS Fender. $7,000 For a Tele That's reliced?

[Doctor Jeff]

They no longer have any archtops on the Epiphone website either. No Joe Pass or Broadway models. Only semi-hollow bodies.

True except for the Casino. Whether that is a reasonable jazz guitar is a good question. The Wildcat is similar to the Joe Pass except semihollow.

"Stopped producing sedans"?

You mean like Honda Accords, Toyota Camry's, Ford Taurus, Lincoln's, Cadillacs, BMWs, Mercedes, Chevy Impalas and Malibus, Lexus, Infiniti? I'm not following.

It's been known for some time that Ford is killing the Taurus, the Fusion and the Focus, Chrysler the 300 series, and General Motors the Volt, Cruze, Cadillac CT6 and XTS, Buick LaCrosse and the Impala. Honda and Toyota are cutting production on the Accord and Camry as well. Granted there are still some sedans out there, mainly luxury cars, but SUVs are killing the sedans off for the most part.

The Life and Slow Death of the Sedan - InsideHook

[GTRMan]

Reduced sedan production, then.

[SkipBurz]

I find both themes of this thread fascinating - the current state of the archtop and the current state (and future of) jazz. Speaking to the second theme, I spend a fair amount of time around young music lovers and have hope. First, I'm a college sociology professor, but have "infiltrated" the music department at my college. One way is I teach a social history of jazz course that students can count toward their required fine arts gen ed course. Most students take the course because it sounds more interesting than the garden-variety history of western music course. Of my 30 students each fall, probably 25 have never intentionally listened to jazz. (A few will have dads who were/are fans, but rarely are their moms fans - another topic for another day.) In summary, my students find swing to be kind of fun because of the dancing; they find bebop confusing and noisy; and they find cool and west coast jazz to be pleasant and "soothing"; and modern jazz to be hit and miss. However, in the last few classes when we talk about the future of jazz, we spend some time listening to several of the younger straight ahead jazz players (for example, Joey Alexander), but also to Snarky Puppy, Vulfpeck, Lettuce, and some of the other R&B/jazz/rock jam-bands that are out there. Most students have heard of these groups and some have seen them live.

Secondly, we have a great performing arts department at our local high school that my kids have been a part of over the years. There are a lot of young teenage musicians running around our town who are big fans of the above groups and put together jam bands of their own with horn sections and even strings. Our local university has a fantastic music department (where one of my sons is a percussion major), so that provides a fair amount of live music in the area - most of these bands are local kids. My kids' teenage friends who are guitar players love to come over the house to talk guitars with me. When I invite them to play my guitars that are hanging on the wall, hands down, the first one they grab is my '89 ES-175 and then my ES-335 after that, (and they love to plug into my Fender Princeton or Deluxe). They all imagine themselves owning one of these guitars someday. I always encourage them to go to our local music store (yes, we still have one!), and buy an Ibanez AF-95 or AF-75 for a few hundred dollars and just start playing around with it. Their enthusiasm and reverence gives me hope.

[Doctor Jeff]

I find both themes of this thread fascinating - the current state of the archtop and the current state (and future of) jazz. Speaking to the second theme, I spend a fair amount of time around young music lovers and have hope. First, I'm a college sociology professor, but have "infiltrated" the music department at my college. One way is I teach a social history of jazz course that students can count toward their required fine arts gen ed course. Most students take the course because it sounds more interesting than the garden-variety history of western music course. Of my 30 students each fall, probably 25 have never intentionally listened to jazz. (A few will have dads who were/are fans, but rarely are their moms fans - another topic for another day.) In summary, my students find swing to be kind of fun because of the dancing; they find bebop confusing and noisy; and they find cool and west coast jazz to be pleasant and "soothing"; and modern jazz to be hit and miss. However, in the last few classes when we talk about the future of jazz, we spend some time listening to several of the younger straight ahead jazz players (for example, Joey Alexander), but also to Snarky Puppy, Vulfpeck, Lettuce, and some of the other R&B/jazz/rock jam-bands that are out there. Most students have heard of these groups and some have seen them live.

Secondly, we have a great performing arts department at our local high school that my kids have been a part of over the years. There are a lot of young teenage musicians running around our town who are big fans of the above groups and put together jam bands of their own with horn sections and even strings. Our local university has a fantastic music department (where one of my sons is a percussion major), so that provides a fair amount of live music in the area - most of these bands are local kids. My kids' teenage friends who are guitar players love to come over the house to talk guitars with me. When I invite them to play my guitars that are hanging on the wall, hands down, the first one they grab is my '89 ES-175 and then my ES-335 after that, (and they love to plug into my Fender Princeton or Deluxe). They all imagine themselves owning one of these guitars someday. I always encourage them to go to our local music store (yes, we still have one!), and buy an Ibanez AF-95 or AF-75 for a few hundred dollars and just start playing around with it. Their enthusiasm and reverence gives me hope.

Good point.

With your guitars, you've got all bases covered, from Hendrix to Pass to Doc Watson.

[christianm77]

TBF I find bebop confusing and noisy. That’s why I like it.

[christianm77]

One thing that strikes me is how kind of tame a lot of the music the young people like is.... In my day we went from Grindcore to John Coltrane via prog rock, punk, even Stravinsky, Stockhausen whatever.... we were the music nerds - and very much it was posing on some level - but presumably you would be interested in music to want to be a musician?

I played my younger jazz students Donny MacCaslin and they were like ‘this music is really weird’

And these days, Vulfpeck are a thing. Metronome funk. The safest tamest stuff out there (and I like some of it too, I quite like middle of the road music.) I expect to be shocked by young people’s tastes! But not by its inoffensiveness...

Funny world we live in.

[Woody Sound]

Probably a topic for another thread, but yes, you can hear the difference between a solid wood carved archtop and most laminates even when amplified. That assumes you're amplifying the acoustic sound with a reasonable fidelity pickup and acoustic type amplifier. If you've got a humbucker and a standard guitar amp, to my ears (YMMV), not so much. Can't say I can tell the difference between an ES175 and an L5 running through a Fender Deluxe from a stage. In the living room or studio maybe more of a difference.

As for musicians in the wild using solid carved instruments, there are a lot of folks playing carved Eastman's out there.

Great post.

[Matt Milton]

One thing that strikes me is how kind of tame a lot of the music the young people like is.... In my day we went from Grindcore to John Coltrane via prog rock, punk, even Stravinsky, Stockhausen whatever.... we were the music nerds
Funny world we live in.

Sums me up: teenage indie kid, punk, grunge and general John Peel listener; hip-hop and drum'n'bass obsessive at uni; jazz, free improv and 'contemporary classical' interests in my 20s; die-hard folkie and traditional music fan in my 30s; recent return to jazz of a more traditional kind in my early 40s...

I spent a lot of time browsing Bandcamp over the past few years while doing fairly mundane desk jobs, and 'the kids' are still into some quite extreme music by the looks of it. Maybe they're not taking jazz guitar lessons, but I've been pleasantly surprised at how much good grindcore there is out there (frankly I'm pleasantly surprised grindcore is still even a thing!).

Idly browsing bandcamp has got me back into the more extreme kinds of metal and also pointed me towards a lot of good electronic stuff. On that note, ever since the 80s each new generation has generally found something novel and innovative to do to the hip-hop or house template: whether it's been techno, drum'n'bass, grime, dubstep, trip-hop or whatever. I think the day we can really declare the kids' taste in music truly staid is when there is no longer any good dance or hip-hop related stuff. I'm currently loving all things on the Principe label out of Portugal.

[SkipBurz]

Good point.

With your guitars, you've got all bases covered, from Hendrix to Pass to Doc Watson.

And what's funny is they're not as interested in my Tele or D-28, which is probably much nicer than they solid body or acoustic guitars they play everyday.

[christianm77]

Sums me up: teenage indie kid, punk, grunge and general John Peel listener; hip-hop and drum'n'bass obsessive at uni; jazz, free improv and 'contemporary classical' interests in my 20s; die-hard folkie and traditional music fan in my 30s; recent return to jazz of a more traditional kind in my early 40s...

I spent a lot of time browsing Bandcamp over the past few years while doing fairly mundane desk jobs, and 'the kids' are still into some quite extreme music by the looks of it. Maybe they're not taking jazz guitar lessons, but I've been pleasantly surprised at how much good grindcore there is out there (frankly I'm pleasantly surprised grindcore is still even a thing!).

Idly browsing bandcamp has got me back into the more extreme kinds of metal and also pointed me towards a lot of good electronic stuff. On that note, ever since the 80s each new generation has generally found something novel and innovative to do to the hip-hop or house template: whether it's been techno, drum'n'bass, grime, dubstep, trip-hop or whatever. I think the day we can really declare the kids' taste in music truly staid is when there is no longer any good dance or hip-hop related stuff. I'm currently loving all things on the Principe label out of Portugal.

maybe more of a reflection on kids that want to play jazz guitar then?

[rlrhett]

What the heck is “grindcore”? And, for the last time, you kids stay off my lawn!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[waltf]

I think jazz is gaining in popularity. There are amazing young bands out there.
some quick examples, but there are many..

the guitarist has a solo album out, just him and an archtop.

sure it's different then traditional jazz, but i love it.

mansur brown / yussef dayes are other good examples.

Yussef Dayes X Alfa Mist - Love Is The Message (Live @ Abbey Road) ft.Mansur Brown & Rocco Palladino - YouTube

[SkipBurz]

I think jazz is gaining in popularity. There are amazing young bands out there.
some quick examples, but there are many..

the guitarist has a solo album out, just him and an archtop.

sure it's different then traditional jazz, but i love it.

mansur brown / yussef dayes are other good examples.

Excellent examples!

[grahambop]

What the heck is “grindcore”? And, for the last time, you kids stay off my lawn!

Here, grandad, let me enlighten you (ok I didn’t know either):

Grindcore - Wikipedia

[grahambop]

Not to be confused with pornogrind:

Pornogrind - Wikipedia

[christianm77]

Grindcore is a type of punk/metal music from about 30 years ago. Some of those who played it are probably grandads by now...

anyway, in honour of the late Tim Smith here is Napalm Death’s rather splendid cover of ‘To Go Off and Things’ by Cardiacs.

[Alter]

I like Napalm Death, have some albums

[jads57]

Without the Blues to me there is no Jazz. That's just my opinion, but if you look at all the great players of the past, that's what their style is based in.
From Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, etc.

I find the newer Jazz very uninteresting and akin to an Algebraic Equation. I'm about the story,feel, and groove. It don't mean a thing if ai t got that Swing!

[grahambop]

My favourite Grindcore track:

[Marinero]

I think jazz is gaining in popularity. There are amazing young bands out there.
some quick examples, but there are many..

the guitarist has a solo album out, just him and an archtop.

sure it's different then traditional jazz, but i love it.

mansur brown / yussef dayes are other good examples.

If these are, indeed, examples of the future of Jazz, we're in serious trouble. I've heard better bands on the old Holiday Inn circuit. Sorry!
Play live! . . . Marinero

[Marinero]

Grindcore is a type of punk/metal music from about 30 years ago. Some of those who played it are probably grandads by now...

anyway, in honour of the late Tim Smith here is Napalm Death’s rather splendid cover of ‘To Go Off and Things’ by Cardiacs.

Surely, you're kidding, C. Please . . . tell me you're kidding.
Play live . . . Marinero

[waltf]

If these are, indeed, examples of the future of Jazz, we're in serious trouble. I've heard better bands on the old Holiday Inn circuit. Sorry!
Play live! . . . Marinero

they might think the same way about your kind of music, altough they’ll probably be nicer about it.
Anyway, that’s not really the point i was trying to make..

[christianm77]

they might think the same way about your kind of music, altough they’ll probably be nicer about it.
Anyway, that’s not really the point i was trying to make..

That would require him to actually post some music though lol.

[customxke]

That would require him to actually post some music though lol.

Just search for his Tiny Desk concert on NPR....I'm sure they've featured him, since his music is "better" than those he mocked.