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Hi everyone,
So the title refers not to a guitar of mine but to a guitar that might be mine. Here's the backstory: I've been scrimping and saving for a couple of years with the intent of getting myself a graduation gift for completing my masters degree (hint: it's a guitar!). Well, the end of the semester was a mess for obvious reasons, and I've lost a lot of work for the foreseeable future. That said, I may not have to dip into my graduation gift savings if a couple of things work out. If that's the case, I'm still going to get the guitar.
The other end of the backstory is that I've played two Moffa guitars, both Lorraines, and was really struck by both of them. Neither was for sale and that's ok, because at the times I played them I would have bankrupted myself trying to pay for either. I've been intending to contact Nico Moffa, but there's a Lorraine I might be able to buy used. The two problems are that I can't try it first (for obvious reasons), and it has a crack in the back.
As a general question, how concerned are you all with a crack, and a fairly large one, in the back of an instrument? I mean as players, I'm not a collector. How much would you figure it impacts the value of a luthier-built instrument, roughly? Again, as a player looking to buy.
There's a picture that shows the crack somewhat. According to the seller it's closed up reasonably tight with concentrated humidification, but has not been fixed yet. The crack is on the left, towards the treble side and extending from the rim to almost the waist (it's a big one):
All in all I know this is not a financially sound decision, but neither is commissioning a luthier to build an instrument. The part that I'm really afraid of is not having played the guitar, and I don't know when or if I would have the option to, given the state of the world. I suppose all in all I'm looking for your gut reactions to the situation if you care to share them. After all, my mind is warped by a couple years of expectant waiting, plus the chaos going on now.
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05-01-2020 10:40 AM
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Well I am a bit of a maverick, but I say spread out the crack a little bit, use some well-placed Elmers glue and a few well placed padded clamps and you're good to go. Any good guitar polish will clean off any sloppy residue left on the surface.
Apologies to the many folks here who are undoubtedly much more informed than me. But it worked for me on a smashed boutique Hawaiian uke.
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So you'd say go for it?
I should also add that the seller has offered to bring it in to a luthier prior to the sale. So it wouldn't necessarily fall on me to repair it or have it repaired. That said, I don't know the luthier or their work
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I'm neither chiropractic nor luthier. Looks like the back has been carved from one piece of wood instead of two book matched halves. If there's a transversal brace firmly glued to the back, the crack should be stable by now and curable from the outside, at a non-excessive cost, by any qualified luthier. The impact on tone is nil or marginal at best. But the defect should definitely factor in when it comes to pricing. Personally, I would also pay more for a back made from two halves. On a quick scan I could not find any structural information on this guitar. I'm only responding in order to figure out how I would behave in a similar situation. Some of the most coveted and valuable old violins have been repaired umpteen times.
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Ah, interesting. Is preferring and paying more for a 2-piece back primarily a matter of long-term stability or aesthetics? Or a combination? In any case it's good to hear that it should be an easy fix with little consequence to the instrument.
Gitterbug, what would your idea of the pricing impact be?
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Gitterbug, what would your idea of the pricing impact be?
Sorry, no clue as I don't know the ballpark. A few hundred?
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Got it, thank you! Ballpark is mid 4-figures, but the exact price would be subject to negotiation regarding the crack
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I own a Martin OM 21Special that has a couple repaired back cracks (cleats) It never has been any problem as far tone, reopening, etc. Aside from aesthetic it doesn't seem to matter.
And since it's on the back, I can't see it while playing it, LOL !
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Congratulations on your Masters! It's a tremendous achievement no matter what the field.
The seller has lost a lot of the value of the instrument through luck and choice. After s/he had the bad luck to crack the back, s/he had three choices: a) Pay to send it back to Moffa for replacement (and obtain full, 'it never happened' value); b) Pay someone else to repair (but wind up with a 'story' guitar); or c) Don't pay for any repair and take the hit. There is no fourth choice of, 'Pretend a broken instrument still holds full-value.'
Without a new, Moffa-installed back that guitar will always be a 'player' guitar. That's cool, a lot of us have owned 'player' guitars -- I've bought and enjoyed plenty.
Bottom line is that the Moffa Lorraine is never a mass-market resale guitar and a 'player' much more so. My guess is that buyers would start to find it attractive for about half of what 'most' used never-cracked Moffa Lorraines sell for.
All good luck. Let us know how you make out.
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So a quick scan around the interwebs indicates $6500+ new, asking prices ~$4700 - $5000 used. For a guitar with this damage, because one doesn't know what might else be wrong (loose braces, etc.), I would not pay over $3750 and I'd be stretching to pay that. But then while I don't mind a guitar with playing wear and "character" this is structural and I probably wouldn't buy it at all. I agree with Sam's reasoning. It would have to play and sound really great to overcome the damage, but without the chance to play it and examine it first...
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that's a wicked crack...and unlike spruce where it travels along the grain lines and is easier to cover...
why get into that mess?? do you even know what type of wood that is??
to repair that to the point that it can't be seen is going to be pricey!!!...and to leave it...the crack could run the other way...
i'd keep lookin..but to each his own
luck with your decision
cheers
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The crack can be repaired, and it shouldn't affect the tone, nor should it be a long-term problem if done properly. The value of the guitar is whatever someone is willing to pay. You have to decide how much you're willing to pay, and try to negotiate it down to that. I have no idea where you are, where the guitar is, nor do I know the person who would do the repairs. Thus I can't advise you on that.
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I’m wondering whether the crack is a result of over dry conditions. You original post seems to imply that the owner did some intense rehydrating. I would wonder about protruding fret ends, cracked fretboard binding, etc. Any evidence of any of that?
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There are some really valuable insights here, thank you everyone! I've definitely got some more thinking to do. Sam and Cunamara, thank you both for the detailed and specific responses, it actually put a lot in perspective.
Neatomic, the back is Korina. Mark, my guess is that yes, it is due to dry conditions. I can't see any visible evidence of protruding frets, but there aren't that many pictures of the side of the fretboard at an angle that would facilitate seeing that. Sgosnell, I'm in Michigan and the guitar is in Colorado. I don't know the luthier there either, but if I were to buy the guitar I could take it to Pete Moreno in Kalamazoo to have it worked on.
After hearing from all of you I'm feeling better about the crack itself, actually, as a single issue (I'm hoping for a guitar I would never consider selling, so the aesthetics of the fix wouldn't necessarily be critical to me). But I'm feeling much more unsure about my interest in the guitar, having not played it. It's one thing to trust a luthier with a strong reputation and whose guitars I've played in good circumstances, and another thing to trust that this example has been well cared for and will be representative of Nico Moffa's best work. I'm leaning towards waiting on this until such a time as I'm able to actually play the guitar. That's something I was a little anxious about to begin with in any case.
Thank you so much for the input, everyone! It's great to hear such detailed and passionate input from multiple viewpoints, and I'm deeply appreciative!
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"Intense Rehydrating"? That sounds wrong. Steam bath? Shower? Makes me imagine calling the SPCG (Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Guitars).
Originally Posted by Mark M.
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ok, so it is korina...in 2013, gibson put out a statement that they were no longer going to use korina wood for their guitars...one of the reasons-
The other big problem is that in its initial stages, Korina is a difficult wood to work with. Korina trees tend to grow very large, but good large pieces are very hard to come by. Like any wood, Korina has a lot of moisture, and when the water drains from it, it drains very fast and causes the wood to split very easily.
cheers
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I've worked w/ Korina many times, it does split easily when too dry.
as for the guitar I'd pass myself, too many guitars out there w/out issues like that for me to bother, but it can probably be fixed and not be an issue again as long as a good humidiy level is maintained
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Sure is nice looking wood though!
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I agree, it's beautiful looking wood!
Thank you everyone, this is wonderful feedback. I'm not going to buy this guitar unless there's a way I can play it in the (relatively) near future. I've never bought a guitar without having the opportunity to play it before (well, I did once buy an inexpensive classical on Ebay because I knew I could resell it for slightly more than I paid if I didn't like it. I didn't like it, but it worked well for the gig I needed a classical for) and I would rather not start with a used instrument in this kind of price range with known problems.
We'll see when travel becomes a reasonable option again! In the meantime I'm still playing and practicing, and working on my home recording skills, so it's all good. Thank you again, everybody!
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You might ask the luthier for advise: info@moffaguitars.it
He might also quote the price for a repair or replacement of the back.
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