How do you feel about modelers?

[rpjazzguitar]

Some, maybe all of the modelers, have slots to insert downloaded IRs.

There are a zillion choices, some for free, others not.

Very little info on how to go about choosing one.

And, of course, what sounds good in the practice room doesn't necessarily sound good on the gig. On the ME90 switching IRs, iirc, was an arcane series of button pushes to select one of four choices. A lot to remember when you're on a bandstand.

In the ME90 setup I tried, most, but not all, things are controllable with knobs. Still, say there's a problem. The guitar doesn't sound right. On my guitar I've got two pickups, four knobs and a selector switch. First off, I have to verify that the selector switch hasn't been moved. It should be on neck pu. Then it's two knobs. I usually have volume full up, so I need to check that and then see if rotating the tone knob solves the problem.

If it doesn't, next up is the ME90. Depending on the patch, I might have a preamp model with 3 EQ knobs, gain and level. A separate EQ module with 3 bands plus level. And, some other processing, maybe compression, maybe some kind of modulation -- with a couple more knobs for each. Less visible is the cabinet modeling and IR modeling. There's also a PA/Amp switch on the back which makes significant changes which, as I write this, I can't fully recall. Bass is blooming, treble is thin -- where to begin the adjustments?

And then, the amp, with another set of EQ controls and volume.

I have had the experience of accidentally moving the pickup selector switch and not realizing it. Next thing, I'm fiddling with every knob in the system. When I finally figure out it was the switch, my entire rig is adjusted incorrectly and I have no idea what the current settings are.

Now, that happened a while back. So now I turn down the bridge pu volume all the way. If the switch gets thrown I get silence so I can figure it out.

I used patches which I could get back to in case of a random adjustment problem.

I went back to an amp after trying a couple of powered speakers with complicated or poorly documented features (I posted ad nauseum about that).

So, it's all controllable, but it's not user friendly. I imagine there's a way to power through all of that, but, frankly, I didn't think it was worth it, since I can get most of what I want with a simpler setup.

Unfortunate, because there are advantages to something like the Bose S1, if you can get it to sound right. It's very powerful, small and light. It's very good for vocals and can sound great for guitar when the planets line up. But, it required modeling/EQ or something in front and that ended up being complicated.

[jzucker]

Two very simple solid contenders for jazz seem to be the Boss IR-2 and the brand new Tonex One. Two channels, amp, reverb, the tonex also has a compressor and a tuner.

BOSS - IR-2 | Amp & Cabinet

TONEX ONE

The Tonex seems more impressive, but when trying them, it comes down to which one feels best.. At least they are cheap, so easy to try. I preferred the Boss IR-2 over the Helix stomp and Boss Gt-1000 core for the simplicity alone. Plus the less digital stuff you got the easier it is to get a good sound. Will get the Tonex one when it is available!

ToneX sounds wonderful but has little capability on the box to speak of.

[Bobby Timmons]

I am, which means I eat avocado toast - but I’m on team knobs.

Haha exactly. I think it's cool that even though our micro generation came of age around the millennium, we were still the last to experience olden type society. I was born in 85 and I remember elementary school before widespread use of the internet. I think I was in 5th or 6th grade when the school and my home got AOL.

[orri]

I'm in that micro generation too.
I think I would go for a Boss ME90 if I needed something practical and versatile. If I had some gig or jam context where I'd want to be able to quickly access tones for a varied repertoire and varieid genres genres. That's the kind of product I would want.
If I were in a rock/pop band, where we play the same songs and each sections of a song has it's own pre programmed sound, I think I would want a modeller with a "stage" mode.
(However I mainly play jazz with other people, so plugging an archtop into an amp with a built in reverb suits all my current needs outside of my flat)

I do find products off putting if they're designed to be used with an app, as its main use case (I think its cool if its optional feature, rather than necessary).

I don't think anyone really loves menu scrolling (some definitely despise it). I can accept it as a necessary evil if it gives me a tonne of extra options.

But what I would like to buy at this point is a modelling product with market leading sound quality and market leading intuitive, easy to use touch screen UI. My understanding is that only Quad Cortex and Tonemaster pro have a UI at that level at the moment. (I think boss gx100 made a decent attempt but didn't nail it to the top tier level, and I don't have full picture on the newer headrush, ampero, hotone, tonex and more products)

I feel the Tonemaster pro and Quad cortex are too expensive to make any compromises (I'd pay that price if they had everything I want). Tonemaster pro is a tad to big and might need to get a bit more mature with SW/FW updates (a bit like Helix when it was new, but we don't know what or when Fender will deliver).
The Quad cortex effects selection is not market leading, and I want marked leading for that price (and big selling point features like cloud whatever and capturing is of no value to me).

I've been close to getting the HX stomp but I think I do want a easier to use UI (I do check if they pop up used for a more tempting price). Fractal FM3 is also close to what I want, but as I understand it you need to spend more time on tweaking your tones. I want tweaking to be optional and not necessary.

I am still considering if I should get a line6 one, so that I can have it on my pedalboard for effects that I use seldom. (I do own a pedalboard with a tuner and 4 effects I use frequently, if I want to use a chorus and some 4 other effects once a year each, I don't want to double the amount of pedals on my board).

[jzucker]

quad cortex and tonex are not so great for effects. Fractal blows them away. I wish fractal would create a dumbed down version. HX Stomp has better effects than QC or tonex but not in the same league with fractal. Same with the clean jazz amps. They do have superior bass amps though...

[orri]

I wish fractal would create a dumbed down version.

I agree, I think I would love a FM3 where I could get all the amps, and effects with great sounding default settings, fast and simple to do common simple tweaks, but also the option to more advanced tweaks (which doesn't need to be as simple).

[Stevebol]

I use the Page in the FX loop of the Boss and use the 4 X 10 Fender Bassman setting on the Boss;





The Page does what the Boss can't do- add some real tube warmth.

[mr quick]

I'm a millennial, but I come from a working-class immigrant household, so I even had black and white TV! I love a good knob (no jokes please), but the quickest and easiest solutions tend to be better - unless the easiest solution is complacancy and refusing to adapt to new technology, like my dad who refuses to learn how to make backing tracks on modern technology and still schleps ancient keyboards with cases of floppy disks to gigs - or well, he did until his health troubles. Now he just doesn't take that gig.

I'm not anti-amp or anything like that, but I believe that a lot of people don't completely understand modellers intuitively, and then immediately disregard them because they're "difficult" when in fact they're just a different methodology. A classical guitarist would struggle with dialling a tube screamer and a blues jr., something which is as basic as plucking strings to an electric player. I think it's a dangerous groove into which to fall, because one might end up years down the line not only stale, but unable to work with anything other than what you're used to.

I do believe a lot of naysayers simply don't understand how to work with modellers, and because they already have years of experience, they consider amps and pedals to be "simpler".

I am surely repeating myself but, I was a skeptic of modellers until I brought my vintage CE-2 to a friend's house to A/B test it vs. his Axe FX II, and I was completely blown away. That opened my eyes, and then I experimented some more (and asked digital users) until I was convinced it was the way to go. The learning curve was steep but once I'd started learning the methodology I couldn't see any reason to go back.
To reiterate, not anti-amp in any way. Go for it, but I sincerely believe that much skepticism is simply uninformed.

[gianluca]

I’m new to modelers and multi effects units: are there on the web some good guides about how to choose the one which fits your needs?
and some tips about how to set up tones…

I have a boss me 80 which seems to me just a toy and not a pro tool. But maybe I’m not good enough to set it up.
I need some smooth overdrive tone and some fat clean (delay, compressor, reverb) that I hear around on the web but I’m not able to replicate.

I’ve always been a guitar-cable-amp guy but lately my taste has changed.

thank for any advice

[Christian Miller]

I’m up for it, but I only use at the most two or three sounds for jazz gig and screens frighten me.


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[mr. beaumont]

I’m up for it, but I only use at the most two or three sounds for jazz gig and screens frighten me.


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Y'know, I have a pretty elaborate setup in my classroom with a laptop, projector, document camera, speaker system, etc, that has run for 7-8 hours a day for the last few years with never an issue.

But when it come to playing the guitar I want like a 3 knob amp that's burning threads inside glass bottles because somehow I think that's more "reliable."

[jzucker]

I’m up for it, but I only use at the most two or three sounds for jazz gig and screens frighten me.


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same here but i still prefer it to any real amp out there because if I find an amp that sounds great with my archtop, it's going to suck for pop music or any kind of blues, fusion, overdrive.

On my gig last night, using my barney kessel, I used the clean fender amp on my fractal 90% of the time but i used a semi distorted fender for several tunes and used the virtual stomps for overdrive and wah on a couple tunes. There is no standalone amp that I've tried that can nail those tones in one unit.

[jazzloverfat]

i'm very tech savvy, but when it comes to music i like things simple and for me that is knobs and WYSIWYG. a good amp or two, depending on needs, a couple of good pedals and i can dial in a tone that i enjoy. as a hobbyist, music is complicated enough, why make things harder with screens, navigating menus, pairing apps, potential lag and so on? not to mention it feels refreshing to be free from modern gadgets and apps while practicing or jamming with my friends. yes we geek out a lot on the latest and greatest, but at the end of the day we all enjoy the simplicity of the good ol' analog.

also, seeing this a while ago kinda ruined the whole digital thing for me xD

[jim777]

I'm waiting for the FM9 to drop in price to somewhere below a grand. I'm curious as to which comes first - that or grandchildren!

[Spook410]

Modelers, even the fancy ones, just aren't that hard.

[rpjazzguitar]

I’m up for it, but I only use at the most two or three sounds for jazz gig and screens frighten me.


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Same here. I have four sounds programmed into my ME70 (I went backward after trading my ME80 for an ME90, which I didn't like). The ME70 has two advantages: 4 band EQ (the others have 3) and it fits into an ordinary rolling briefcase (the others are too wide).

It has four footswitches, one for each of the sounds I use.

Clean, added-octave-down, overdrive and wet. Mostly I use clean for comping and wet for solos. (Can be heard on this forum in the Showcase section under Brazilian Jazz).

Adjustment on the fly is pretty simple, but I rarely have to do it. Maybe turn the reverb knob a bit.

[Christian Miller]

Same here. I have four sounds programmed into my ME70 (I went backward after trading my ME80 for an ME90, which I didn't like). The ME70 has two advantages: 4 band EQ (the others have 3) and it fits into an ordinary rolling briefcase (the others are too wide).

It has four footswitches, one for each of the sounds I use.

Clean, added-octave-down, overdrive and wet. Mostly I use clean for comping and wet for solos. (Can be heard on this forum in the Showcase section under Brazilian Jazz).

Adjustment on the fly is pretty simple, but I rarely have to do it. Maybe turn the reverb knob a bit.

I like the look of the boss. It has knobs. Also if it runs on double AA’s I might just have to go crazy and not buy it because I don’t have any money.


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[rpjazzguitar]

I like the look of the boss. It has knobs. Also if it runs on double AA’s I might just have to go crazy and not buy it because I don’t have any money."P


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It's possible to not buy the bulk of the functionality at a lower price. "Previously owned".

They're built like tanks and the ME50 and ME70 both are good units. So, going "previous" can make sense.

In the ME90, the big improvements are allegedly better preamps (I didn't like any of them) and some more options with cabinet modeling.

It will also connect to your computer thereby providing a few more options than are available from the unit itself. I didn't find them helpful in my application. I was trying to use it in front of a Bose S1 powered speaker - which looked better in theory than it sounded on some gigs (it was better on the louder ones).

To be fair, they aren't marketing this unit to jazz players. Rock players seem to like it a lot.

[Bosko]

This was interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdnUvoGdpcU&list=LL&index=8&t=876s

[Christian Miller]

It's possible to not buy the bulk of the functionality at a lower price. "Previously owned".

They're built like tanks and the ME50 and ME70 both are good units. So, going "previous" can make sense.

In the ME90, the big improvements are allegedly better preamps (I didn't like any of them) and some more options with cabinet modeling.

It will also connect to your computer thereby providing a few more options than are available from the unit itself. I didn't find them helpful in my application. I was trying to use it in front of a Bose S1 powered speaker - which looked better in theory than it sounded on some gigs (it was better on the louder ones).

To be fair, they aren't marketing this unit to jazz players. Rock players seem to like it a lot.

I’m a basic B. I’ve always been fine with the COSM models from the old Boss/Roland range. I don’t need it to respond like a real tube amp. My little Roland Cube Mobile sounds great (obv limited a bit by the tiny speaker.) But the Katana sounds good to me as well. Presumably it’s similar tech in the Boss floor units.


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[jim777]

Modelers, even the fancy ones, just aren't that hard.

Are you familiar with the Fractal AX8?

[StoneWaller]

"We didn't play oldies, we played ancienties" Gene Allen, Blue Jean Committee

At the bitter end of a long day, I just want to play for an hour or so before crashing. Figuring out this amazing music from last mid century is my daily escape, and playing old music with old gear just feels correct to me.

That being said, I see the versatility, incredibly creative possibilities, and all other rightly lauded benefits of modelers. They just don't do it for me, and I don't have the skills or ear to take advantage of it if I did. The whole KISS thing and all...

[m_d]

I've started to dabble with a piece of free software called Tonocracy. The main attraction is it uses IA-based amp models. I have very little time on it but it sounds and feels quite impressive. The joke was that initially it sounded and felt terrible, because Tonocracy don't say how to set interface/input levels in their manual, or to set the driver to Asio. It seems to be a common problem with such products. I eventually found the information on the Gear Page. What got me interested were clips from a company called Amalgam Audio on YouTube which do sound like real amps and easily as impressive as the Kemper device. It seems with IA-based products like this and new platforms like the Tonex pedal, things are changing fast in the modeling/profiling world. I'm personally waiting for the next generation of physical units before deciding on any modeller, but I may not even need one as I only play at home.

[mr quick]

It's been a while and I pulled the gear out today, it's a very different fatigue you get from having a million tone combinations at your fingertips. For fun, I played with no IR/Cabinet, and then when I switched back to my regular favourites, they felt dull and like they had a buzzy mid-scoop.
Sigh, the pursuit of "perfect" tone continues.

In the meantime, I think it's time to get back to the acoustic. It is what it is and nothing more or less.

[Litterick]

What would Heidegger say?