How do you feel about modelers?

[jzucker]

i have an fm3 and fm9 and they are amazing. Best tones I've ever gotten. I wouldn't even consider a tube amp at this point. Having tried line6, tonex, quad cortex, kemper, UA, strymon, TC Deluxe 65, fender i feel that the fractal is in its own league. To Jeff's point, yes it's not the easiest UI to get a long with but it sounds more amp like than anything else I've tried. It beat out my $4000 amplified nation wonderland tube amp. At "reasonable" volume levels and for recording, i felt it sounded better than the tube amp.

In my evaluations, fractal's recording/speaker sims were noticeably better than line6 and most of the other modelers. tonex and qc have the potential to take things to another level but (IMO) both companies seem to be somewhat of a mess and and don't realize the potential of their hardware, marred by bugs and horrible user interfaces, effects that are mediocre, etc...

Fractal's spring reverbs and fender amp models sound way better than fenders' tonemaster ironically

[Christian Miller]

I want the new Line 6 Pod express - its a pedal, runs on AA’s and has knobs. It also sounds pretty good.


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[Spook410]

Modelers keep getting cheaper and better. I'm running a Joyo American (older analog preamp model) and Joyo Cabinet Modeler (newer power amp/cabinet modeler with EQ and other stuff). In spite of the DI failing on my first Joyo Cabinet Modeler, I'm buying another one. The extensive IR's sound really good and the features, particularly the excellent EQ, and ergos are just too good. I'll get around to selling my Strymon Iridium some time. Good pedal especially with upgraded IR's and great reliability. But, oddly given the price points, I like the Joyo gear better.

Of course, none of this fixes how much a good powered speaker costs compared to a good quality combo amp.

[pingu]

1323843[/URL]]I want the new Line 6 Pod express - its a pedal, runs on AA’s and has knobs. It also sounds pretty good.


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yeah they look good ….

(also the bass version is tempting
it has models of an Ampeg B15 and a silver face Fender Bassman)
(but unfortunately no reverb)

small batt powered and cheap too

[Spook410]

Side note: A 4 or 5 pedal board driven by a lithium battery power supply (e.g. Amazon.com ) is almost as convenient as a single AA powered pedal.

[Christian Miller]

Side note: A 4 or 5 pedal board driven by a lithium battery power supply (e.g. Amazon.com ) is almost as convenient as a single AA powered pedal.

No it’s not lol

I mean unless you can stuff your pedalboard into your guitar bag, in which case, I need your pedalboard…


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[Christian Miller]

yeah they look good ….

(also the bass version is tempting
it has models of an Ampeg B15 and a silver face Fender Bassman)
(but unfortunately no reverb)

small batt powered and cheap too

I’m willing to overlook its lack of a XLR DI output.

I would say a contender would be the FlyRig 2.0, which has XLR, but otoh is much more expensive and can’t be run off batteries. Also I find SansAmp compresses a little too much for my taste.


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[jzucker]

here's a recent clip with my kessel and the Fractal FM9. Best recorded and live sound I've ever had...

[Spook410]

No it’s not lol

I mean unless you can stuff your pedalboard into your guitar bag, in which case, I need your pedalboard…


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If your guitar bag will handle 20" by 7" you can have full EQ along with your choice of reverb, looper, tremolo, full size strobo-tuner, and modeling beyond a simple Princeton Rvb with no cabinet or mic choices. If not, IMHO and reflecting all my bad habits, you need a larger bag to handle proper kit that will keep your typical bourgeois impoverished in the endless quest for optimization.

[princeplanet]

Is anyone else apart from me a little shocked to realise that most people are performing with modellers right now?

[jzucker]

Is anyone else apart from me a little shocked to realise that most people are performing with modellers right now?

why shocked?

[pingu]

do we think it’s likely
that the Delux Reverb model
in the Line6 Helix
is the same as the one in the
line 6 pod express ?
————-
similarly is the
Delux Reverb model in the
Fender Champ 20
is the same as the model in
their Delux Reverb Tone Master ?
—————-
would the makers even answer such
an impertinent question ?

just a thought ….

[jorgemg1984]

do we think it’s likely
that the Delux Reverb model
in the Line6 Helix
is the same as the one in the
line 6 pod express ?
————-
similarly is the
Delux Reverb model in the
Fender Champ 20
is the same as the model in
their Delux Reverb Tone Master ?
—————-
would the makers even answer such
an impertinent question ?

just a thought ….

In the Helix case, they're the same pre firmware 3.10, as in all Pod products. So, before the "oversampling" update, which improves aliasing.

Post #422 explains it welll here

Line 6 POD Express | Page 22 | The Gear Forum

In the Fender case, I'm not so sure, but I believe the models in the Tone Master Pro are the same as the ones on the Tone Master amps but not the same as the Champ 20. But don't take my word for granted here.

[jzucker]

just my humble opinion but the fractal audio fender amps sound more realistic and have more authentic spring reverb than the fender modelers. Particularly when you get to the FM9 which has the latest spring reverb updates. The FM3 still hasn't "seen" that update.

I sold my helix after I played through the FM3 for a few days. The FM3 and FM9 really feel like a tube amp to me and satisfy my fender jones better than QC, Tonex, helix, kemper, tonemaster, irridium, UA or TC.

[Christian Miller]

do we think it’s likely
that the Delux Reverb model
in the Line6 Helix
is the same as the one in the
line 6 pod express ?
————-
similarly is the
Delux Reverb model in the
Fender Champ 20
is the same as the model in
their Delux Reverb Tone Master ?
—————-
would the makers even answer such
an impertinent question ?

just a thought ….

It says it’s all the same as the HX/Helix models

My suspicion is they are about to launch a new high end line with new models

Just seen Jorges post, makes sense

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[Christian Miller]

Ok everyone is going to think I’m some kind of lunatic

But I really liked the old COSM models that Boss did. No one would mistake them for a real tube amp, but I really like them. They sound great in my little battery Cube which I use all the time for teaching.

Perhaps we’ve got into the uncanny valley. Alternatively why try to convince tube amp players? A whole generation has grown up playing modellers and would probably not like playing a real tube amp (esp something like a vintage Marshall lol). Otoh the ‘real amp’ guys are extremely hard to please.

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[jorgemg1984]

It says it’s all the same as the HX/Helix models

My suspicion is they are about to launch a new high end line with new models

Just seen Jorges post, makes sense

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Well, several Line 6 offical employes have said they won't release anything new in the next few years. But, of course, they also said very recently they wouldn't release a small amp pedal to compete with the Iridium and they did just that. So...

One thing is sure, competition is a lot stronger than it was a few years ago. But I would guess, also is demand.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I mean if I wanted to get a high end modeller now, probs Neural DSP? Or maybe the Fender? A few years back Line 6 or Fractal. They HAVE to keep moving forwards. And Line 6 have always been tech leaders. They have a vested interest in keeping it under wraps until launch too.

The product lifecycle is obvious given the nature of advancing tech and the economics. Development costs high, marginal costs probably fairly low. Eventually your tech level will be emulated by the likes of Donner and sold for beans.

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[jorgemg1984]

Yeah I mean if I wanted to get a high end modeller now, probs Neural DSP? Or maybe the Fender? A few years back Line 6 or Fractal. They HAVE to keep moving forwards. And Line 6 have always been tech leaders. They have a vested interest in keeping it under wraps until launch too.

The product lifecycle is obvious given the nature of advancing tech and the economics. Development costs high, marginal costs probably fairly low. Eventually your tech level will be emulated by the likes of Donner and sold for beans.

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Yeah, we'll see. It seems like the bottom of the market is well crowded now - Kemper Player, Stomp, Tonex, Universal Audio, TC, Iridium, IR-200, now the Pod Express...

To me, the up market is not so clear. Fender swears they will stay, but I don't believe it if it doesn't sell well - their track record is not brilliant... And Kemper, Line 6 and Fractal keep releasin relevant updates frequently on their existing hardware, especially Fractal. And the Quad has now modelling, captures and plugins. Interesting times, competition is usually very good for costumers

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, we'll see. It seems like the bottom of the market is well crowded now - Kemper Player, Stomp, Tonex, Universal Audio, TC, Iridium, IR-200, now the Pod Express...

To me, the up market is not so clear. Fender swears they will stay, but I don't believe it if it doesn't sell well - their track record is not brilliant... And Kemper, Line 6 and Fractal keep releasin relevant updates frequently on their existing hardware, especially Fractal. And the Quad has now modelling, captures and plugins. Interesting times, competition is usually very good for costumers

Fair point, these aren’t closed one off purchases with updates and as moore’s law and the price of memory have levelled off older hardware is probably not that out of date.

Tbh I don’t know what the cool kids are using. If I get a gig where I need one of these, I’ll ask around, find out what everyone’s using and buy that.

So maybe line6 don’t need to update the hardware. But I can imagine they’re keen to keep their modelling cutting edge. The early version thing with the cheaper units makes sense.

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[jzucker]

Yeah I mean if I wanted to get a high end modeller now, probs Neural DSP? Or maybe the Fender? A few years back Line 6 or Fractal. They HAVE to keep moving forwards. And Line 6 have always been tech leaders. They have a vested interest in keeping it under wraps until launch too.

The product lifecycle is obvious given the nature of advancing tech and the economics. Development costs high, marginal costs probably fairly low. Eventually your tech level will be emulated by the likes of Donner and sold for beans.

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As I mentioned, I tried the fender and the quad cortex and I think the fractal is better. The hardware on the qc and fender are capable but neither company has their act together and fender has already done some really bad things in terms of customer support. They recently released a powered guitar cab that had a horrible hiss problem. I'm not convinced they know what they are doing in the digital realm. Perhaps they farmed out the development but releasing an amp with an obvious hiss problem is a non-starter. Fractal is still king as far as i'm concerned. None of the other companies can match fractal in terms of effects. The reverb/delay/modulation as well as analog pedal emulation is so far above neural, fender, line6 and the others. You don't need any analog pedals with the fractal. I found myself using pedals with the line6 because their pedal implementations and reverb were mediocre

[jzucker]

Fair point, these aren’t closed one off purchases with updates and as moore’s law and the price of memory have levelled off older hardware is probably not that out of date.

Tbh I don’t know what the cool kids are using. If I get a gig where I need one of these, I’ll ask around, find out what everyone’s using and buy that.

So maybe line6 don’t need to update the hardware. But I can imagine they’re keen to keep their modelling cutting edge. The early version thing with the cheaper units makes sense.

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fender had somewhat of a snafu where they announced they would be supporting the tonemaster pro via discord but then seemed to abandon their support. I didn't follow up to see if they ever resolved the issue. Offering a digital product which does generic emulation of multiple amp and pedal platforms as well as reverbs, delays, mods requires a big commitment in terms of engineering and helpdesk.

[jorgemg1984]

It's too bad the Quad does not have better effects, I still think it could be the better product. And I actually like Line 6 reverbs, although I have not tried Fractal and I'm more of a plate reverb guy tbh.

Regarding Fender's cab, that was a weird one and it seems like they were in an hurry to release the product. Someone found the solution, and it seems pretty simple - they should have corrected it by now. The concept ot their cabs is brilliant, an FRFR cab that looks like an actual guitar amp - why are FRFR cabs made for guitar modelers so ugly, usually? If they fix(ed) the hiss, I'll probably get two one day.

[jzucker]

It's too bad the Quad does not have better effects, I still think it could be the better product. And I actually like Line 6 reverbs, although I have not tried Fractal and I'm more of a plate reverb guy tbh.

Regarding Fender's cab, that was a weird one and it seems like they were in an hurry to release the product. Someone found the solution, and it seems pretty simple - they should have corrected it by now. The concept ot their cabs is brilliant, an FRFR cab that looks like an actual guitar amp - why are FRFR cabs made for guitar modelers so ugly, usually? If they fix(ed) the hiss, I'll probably get two one day.

Fender fixed the problem. It was not an easy fix for the user because the bad chips were not socketed and it meant doing board level soldering which is not an easy thing to do for an amateur. They also never acknowledged the issue and wouldn't fix them under warranty. They didn't give the fix a revision number so you can't be sure which one you are getting. That alone is a HUGE no-no in the industry.

Regarding reverbs, I agree that the plate is decent in the line6 but the fractal plate is much better and the spring reverb is an order of magnitude better. The fractal actually has the vibe of a real fender amp when you use a fender amp model and spring reverb.

Line6 power cab also looks like an actual guitar amp.

[jzucker]

oh and @jorgemg1984,


Remember all my complaints about how speaker IRs were not "all that"? Well, whatever fractal is doing with IRs is much better than what line6 is doing. The fractal IR implementation sounds very good and I'm using the same IRs that I wasn't happy with under line6...