How do you feel about modelers?

**pingu** · 03-10-2020, 04:56 PM

I'm thinking about buying a cheap modeller
Anyone using a Zoom G1Four or G1xFour ....

are they any good ?
it seems to have everything on it
loads of amp models and fx (including a looper)

cheap too

too too good to be true ?

**feet** · 03-11-2020, 01:54 AM

For guitar: no need. My amps do what I want them to do. don't need a billion other sounds and all that option paralysis. They're there when I'm ready and the sounds couldn't be better. And with a load box, I'm getting about as close as I can when I record, too.

Tried a few plug in amp modelers with mixed success. The sounds are pretty good and they record well but it's just nowhere near as fun.

For bass: loving the plug in amp modeler I'm using. More than all the tones I could ever need from a single "amp". Awesome for recording.

I just plug into my guitar amps or run pedals into a pa, otherwise. Really wanted a decent bass rig but was able to avoid it.

**Little Jay** · 03-11-2020, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Spook410

Bet there were a lot of guitar players that felt tube guitar amps were an abomination when they first came out. And they do sound artificial up against an acoustic archtop. But that all turned out OK.

So.. how can people not at least be curious about modelers and want to try them? Odd.

Oh but I was curious. Tried them, got disappointed...

For live playing and gigging that is. I love the amp-app on my iphone (I use Agile Amp Kit nowadays); together with Sinsonido travel guitar and iRig with headphones it’s a life-saver on holidays! But playing with headphones makes all the difference. I could imagine gigging with amp modelling software and inear monitors - if the whole group comes up on your monitor and you can make your own mix.

**Spook410** · 03-11-2020, 04:08 AM

Interesting. Many can't tell the difference between a Fender Tonemaster and the amp it emulates. At least at the brass tacks level of getting a good sound. But then I think it odd so many can't tell the difference between back/side tonewoods on flat tops while it's usually obvious to me. We all choose gear that suits us and in the end, diversity is a wonderful thing.

**John A.** · 03-11-2020, 01:51 PM

My $.02 ...

I have a cheap Fender modeling amp (Champion 20). It sounds great, is super portable, and loud enough for my uses (it can hang with a small group in a small room). It's very simple to use (one knob to select the model; gain, volume, bass, treble knobs; one knob to select an effect; one knob for effects level; no menus, presets, or programmbility' WYSIWYG). I am not good with multilevel menus, presets, etc. I like knobs. The downside is that it has an 8" speaker (likely of indifferent quality, though I haven't compared it to something else), so it doesn't sound quite like the amps it models, but it sounds good and feels like an amp. I have compared it to similar Voxes, Peaveys, and Blackstars, and think it sounds (a lot) better, and is easier for me to use. I have also compared it to Fender Mustangs, and even though they supposedly have the same core modeling software, the Mustang's presets sound different (and IMO worse). I also have a Roland MicroCube, a small battery operable amp that uses Roland's COSM models. A couple of the sounds are very good, the rest not so much. The small speaker is one limiting factor in sound quality and verisimilitude. It also uses some sort of compressor/limiter for its "clean" models that sounds pretty bad.

I tried a friend's AxeFx very briefly. I didn't get the chance to dig into it, and only tried it at low volumes through recording monitors, so can't really comment on whether it feels like an amp. On recordings, it definitely sounds like one. My friend is into shred/metal/Holdsworthy sorts of stuff, and it works great for that. But it's not something I would be interested in ecause I really don't like dealing with this sort of interface, and wouldn't use the variety of sounds it offers.

I have also used many different DAW amp plugins. On recordings, they sound very realistic -- better results than I can achieve by mic'ing an amp because of the limitations of recording set up and skills. However, actually playing into a the DAW and listening with either headphones or monitors is not a very amp-like experience.

So bottom line, yes, I like modelers and use them. The Tonemasters look interesting. I can't really see trading my Princeton Reverb with one, but if I were starting from scratch with amps maybe. It's very hard to tell from recordings, though.

John

**JaxJaxon** · 05-08-2020, 07:17 PM

I use Fender Amp's each Is a Modeler The Best one is a G Dec 3 Thirty I have the Blues Jazz package installed in it. Use's a Foot controler to switck presets, turn the back up tracks on and off, and Has a Tuner function that mutes the sound when in use. It has 3 diffrent Acoustic amps, a Jazz master amp and the other common amps in most Modelers, VOX, Marshal, Custom. I use it clean and it has alot of head room. My other two Amps are a G Dec Orignal 15 and a Champion 20.

**rob taft** · 05-08-2020, 07:56 PM

I bought my first SS amp in 1976, it was a Gallien Krueger 200GT, a few months later I bought a Kustom silver Tuck and Roll amp. I bought my first Polytone in 77', a massive 2X12 104 that unfortunately died in 97'. I've owned and still own vintage Fenders. I bought my first "modeler" in 1997. It was Line6's first amp. That amp was a disappointment in the tone and feel department. It was like looking at a old TV vs your own eyes i.e. flat and one dimensional. But great strides have been made since.

I currently own several tube amps as well as digital amps e.g. Boss Katana 100, Line6, Tech21. My current setup and with what I am really pleased with is a Kemper Profiler running into a Henriksen Forte Head into a Kemp Kone 1 X 12 cabinet which is set up to emulate a EVM12L speaker. This is the best tone I have had with a "modeler" and it rivals my 70' Pro Reverb or my Fargen Marshall clone without the weight, hum and maintenance. Yes the Forte has a single pre-amp tube running at the proper voltage but I have enough NOS stock AX7's to last to the end of my life.

For a clean Fender like amp tone, I'm impressed with the Henriksen Forte. Coupled with the Kemper and Kemper Kone, I can dial in any kind of tone or amp variety. The early "modelers" lacked the feel of tube amps but that gap has been closed on the high end units. I've had the Kemper since 2012 and I was underwhelmed at first. I also went the Full Range Active Cab route, in my case Atomic CLR's but again I felt I was 90% there. But with numerous firmware updates, the Forte and the Kone I prefer my current setup over anything else I own.

**tonyb300** · 05-08-2020, 08:29 PM

I have a Line 6 and it serves it's purpose, for me it's only recording. Easier to dial in and control, can record silently, etc. but mainly for mid or high gain sounds. For clean tones I've never had success in getting a tone I was happy with or didn't have to tweak & EQ a lot afterwards. I end up getting better results going direct into the mixer or an SM57 in front of my Mesa.

Live it's been even less usable for me, so I go with the Mesa or my DV Mark, some people make it work well but it's always been a catastrophe for me. When Kemper made the scene I A/B'd it with a Fender, a Mesa, and a Diezel, hoping it was a massive step up from what I had, and although I know I wouldn't be able to tell if it was an amp or a modeler from a recording or even a live sound system, next to each other it was night & day.

**DRS** · 05-09-2020, 12:19 PM

I have gone down the modeler path (Line 6 HD500) and the biggest problem is that sooner or later, you need to get the sound out into the world. Maybe if you live with headphones on, you don't care. But the minute that carefully crafted tone is needed to be heard by others, you have problems.
Powered monitors? Which monitor? How much $$$$
Power amp and FRFR speakers? SS amp? Tube amp? What FRFR cab? $$$$?
Power amp and guitar cab? See above.
Pretty soon your into it for $3-4-5K, 40-60 lbs of gear, and your sound is no better than a $600 tube combo - but, yes, you have about 20+ amp models that all sound almost as good as a $600 tube combo.
And the time spent tweaking - literally dozens and dozens of hours to get that "perfect" sound. I found my Line 6 sounded best through the return loop of my Mesa Boogie MkV25 and a 1x12 guitar cab.
But why bother when the amp sounds in the Boogie are way better. But then I only ever went modest cost - HD 500. lower priced powered monitors. Some guys go the whole hog $5K rig with an Axe FX III, multiple high end powered FRFR monitors, IRs, etc.
I do like Roland Cubes and the lowly Mustang III v2 combo. The later was a great little amp with everything thought out and a great, simple computer interface for tweaking. To me, it's what modelers should be.

**Danny W.** · 05-09-2020, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by DRS

I have gone down the modeler path (Line 6 HD500) and the biggest problem is that sooner or later, you need to get the sound out into the world. Maybe if you live with headphones on, you don't care. But the minute that carefully crafted tone is needed to be heard by others, you have problems.
Powered monitors? Which monitor? How much $$$$
Power amp and FRFR speakers? SS amp? Tube amp? What FRFR cab? $$$$?
Power amp and guitar cab? See above.
Pretty soon your into it for $3-4-5K, 40-60 lbs of gear, and your sound is no better than a $600 tube combo - but, yes, you have about 20+ amp models that all sound almost as good as a $600 tube combo.
And the time spent tweaking - literally dozens and dozens of hours to get that "perfect" sound. I found my Line 6 sounded best through the return loop of my Mesa Boogie MkV25 and a 1x12 guitar cab.
But why bother when the amp sounds in the Boogie are way better. But then I only ever went modest cost - HD 500. lower priced powered monitors. Some guys go the whole hog $5K rig with an Axe FX III, multiple high end powered FRFR monitors, IRs, etc.
I do like Roland Cubes and the lowly Mustang III v2 combo. The later was a great little amp with everything thought out and a great, simple computer interface for tweaking. To me, it's what modelers should be.

I have never found it that difficult. Plug modeler into my Acoustic Image Ten2 or Corus+ effects return. Spend an hour or two finding some sounds I like. Done! I played through a Boogie Mark IV throughout the '90's and that took longer to dial in than any of the modelers, and unlike the modelers, it was likely to need to be readjusted when I set up.

I will say that my experience with an HD500 was not very good, but other modelers I've used--Boss GT-5, GT-8, GT-10, Zoom G3X, Eleven Rack, Fractal Axe-FX II & III, Ax-8--were all fine. The Fractal stuff is superior, but I was able to work with all of them.

Danny W.

**guavajelly** · 05-10-2020, 03:47 AM

I'm in the "whatever gets the job done" camp. I am lazy too and don't want to read manuals. I like a straight-in tone also, guitar – cable - amp. And I absolutely hate latency. For most of the gigs I did "pre-corona" a simple fender tube amp (mine is a vibrolux and for even smaller gigs I have a blues jr.) was the appropriate solution. Small stages, the amp did all the work, PA was for singing and keys. If I'd use a modeller I would also have to bring some stage monitoring, put it all together with cables and walwarts, fiddle with the tones and whatnot. So for the lazy guy I am my tube combo (or any decent guitar combo) was the easiest and to me most appropriate solution. And whatever they say – to me tube amps proved to be solid and reliable.
That said for some larger gigs when a PA and appropriate monitoring is provided I use a tech 21 fly rig, an analog modelling rig mimicking a fender amp – and provides some effects like distortion and delay which I only used once when subbing in a rockabilly-band. That also works great for me, I just plug it into a DI-Box connected to the mixer and use only the sansamp part and a little bit of reverb. Mostly funk music so the little bit of compression it adds comes in handy.
The last time I used a digital modeller was in the 90s – a boss GT-5 which had like everything (amp and cab simulations, tons of effects and even a guitar synth). I used it also for a recording we did back then (straight into mixer) and that still sounds fine to me. Whatever gets the job done ...

**patshep** · 05-10-2020, 11:33 AM

I do a lot of recording, I'd love to get a Fractal AX8 or FM8
however, every direct recording I've made, I miss the air of the amp.
have not tried Fractal, they sound best in the clips i've heard... the strymon iridium seemed promising too, but the clips don't sound that good
spending a thousand or double that on a modeler that loses value this quickly scares me
people are asking way way way too much on the used market too

**DRS** · 05-10-2020, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by patshep

I do a lot of recording, I'd love to get a Fractal AX8 or FM8
however, every direct recording I've made, I miss the air of the amp.
have not tried Fractal, they sound best in the clips i've heard... the strymon iridium seemed promising too, but the clips don't sound that good
spending a thousand or double that on a modeler that loses value this quickly scares me
people are asking way way way too much on the used market too

And there is the V.x syndrome
You buy the latest and greatest V.0X. It has all the latest processors and signal path nonsense. 6-8 months later, V.0X+1 comes out and all of a sudden, your unit goes from being worth 65-75% of new to being 40-50% of new. And don't say we shouldn't buy gear for resale value - the system on computer system upgrades is placing big pressure to get the newest. Not all of us can take a bath every time we buy a modeler. Sure, it isn't so bad with the low value units - my HD500 and the likes. But pony up for a Fractal Axe FX and all the associated kit and all of a sudden it's serious money.

**Spook410** · 05-11-2020, 02:32 PM

Not sure the Fractal Audio gear is a good general example for modelers and depreciation going forward. Zoom HD fares better and so far a used Strymon Iridium (if you can find one) has retained most of the initial price.

**rob taft** · 05-11-2020, 04:57 PM

As far as my "modeler" the Kemper. They are selling the same basic hardware 9 years after they released the first units. I bought mine in Mar 2012 and its still being updated with new firmware and software. The basic amp tones and effects have been improved over the years with no additional cost to me. And 8 plus years after I purchased it I can still realistically get 70% of what I paid for it on the used market. The only amp I own that has appreciated is my early 70's SF ProReverb and when I factor in the cost of repairs, tubes, etc. over the 20+ years I've owned it, I'm still in the hole.

**TedBPhx** · 09-09-2020, 02:26 PM

Replaced the Boss Katana with a ToneMaster Twin and a Mesa Rosette. I know the ToneMaster is a modeler with exactly one model but I never got close to that sound with the Katana. Thought I did, but no. The acoustic and clean amps on the Katana suffer greatly compared to the Rosette. Even the 175 is better through the SS Mesa. Thus ends my three years with a modeler.

**ronjazz** · 09-09-2020, 02:50 PM

Since it's a completely subjective decision, I decided long ago that the amplification system was more important than the pre-amp, and when Bose introduced the L1 line array series, I went with that, sold all my guitar amps, and never looked back. That necessitated some kind of modeler, and I found that with careful tweaking of a Digitech multi-effects pedal I could get a wide array of usable sounds for everything from nylon-string Godin to solid-body Ibanez guitars. Over the years, Bose improved the systems by making them even lighter and easier to handle, and now the Bose Compact is my go-to amp for most any gig, along with a Digitech, Zoom or Tech 21 processor. Total investment is around $1250, weight is quite low, but the ability
to play fairly large spaces at reasonable volumes because of the line array "throw" is almost miraculous. For larger gigs or amplifying a group with vocals or horns, the larger L1 Bose stuff is excellent as well. An inexpensive tube mic preamp by Lexicon or ART will give tube folks that feel, and they are also small and light.

**patshep** · 09-09-2020, 05:30 PM

Jazz guys don't really need modelers, why would you? We need a basic clean tone
Modelers, IMO, don't sound or feel great, but are convenient, however, still way overpriced for what you get

**Jim Soloway** · 09-10-2020, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by patshep

Jazz guys don't really need modelers, why would you? We need a basic clean tone
Modelers, IMO, don't sound or feel great, but are convenient, however, still way overpriced for what you get

From my own experience, I have to disagree with you Pat. I had a Line 6 POD HD for a long time and I got more than my money's worth out of it. The biggest benefit was that I was able to get incredibly high quality recordings without any other recording gear other than a computer. I've never even gotten close to that quality with a mic and interface. It was also great for playing at home and gigs through a fairly modestly priced setup. My favorite setup was a $100 class D power amp and a Raezers Edge NY8 cab. I got more complements on the live sound from that rig than anything I've ever played through.

It should also be noted that there's an incredible new generation of modelers on the market now, both in limited option pedals like the Iridium and Swiss Army Knives like the NuX MG300. They're very reasonably priced ($200 to $500), powerful and offer great clean tones. I'm in the processing of reequipping after my return to Mexico and while I like the simplicity of a good amp, the utility of modeling has it still very much on the table. One need only Max405's recordings and video to get a sense of just how useful these devices can be.

**Gilpy** · 09-10-2020, 01:26 PM

If I was unhappy with my current amp I'd definately be checking out the modeling amps. But I've been gigging with a Carr Rambler for 15+ years and I regularly get compliments on my tone. I have some good pedals and I honestly don't see the advantage in having a bunch of different simulated amp sounds at my disposal. In my world, too much tech and too many choices are a distraction from playing.

Having said that, the Tonemasters sound interesting because they're simple and lightweight. And I do use digital multi-effects pedals. There are effects I may only use a couple of times a night and it saves pedalboard space to put them all in one box. They sound fine. The audience does not care.

**m_d** · 09-11-2020, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by patshep

Jazz guys don't really need modelers, why would you? We need a basic clean tone
Modelers, IMO, don't sound or feel great, but are convenient, however, still way overpriced for what you get

To me a tube amp that's useless at low vols, or can only be used at a "sweet spot", based on tech from the 1920s,is hard to justify for the price in the 2020s.

**Tal_175** · 09-11-2020, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by m_d

To me a tube amp that's useless at low vols, or can only be used at a "sweet spot", based on tech from the 1920s,is hard to justify for the price in the 2020s.

Tube amp being useless at low vol is rock players problem which they solve by using pedals. For jazz players, if there is a problem with tube amps at all, it is the opposite, keeping it clean at gig volumes.

**mikeSF** · 09-11-2020, 06:02 PM

I've got a handfull of tube/SS amps and a Kemper. For my rock rig, the Kemper is astounding in sound, features, etc. Plus, upgrade-ability is far superior to any "primitive" amp.

**Stevebol** · 09-30-2020, 01:10 AM

I'm very happy with the Line 6 Pod Go I just got yesterday.

**Marcel_A** · 09-30-2020, 01:50 AM

Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan

I use tube amps at home, but years ago switched to Fractal stuff, first an Axe-FX II, then the AX8. Playing in groups and duos and often in venues with a PA system or with a digital piano, it made my set up and getting levels super fast and easy. In a mix in a restaurant or club, I think it sounds every bit as good.

This is it, isn't it? If you are right next to your amp, it's all about the amp and guitarists are very critical about how they sound. Once you start recording or playing through pa systems, it all changes. I made some very nice recordings using Garageband and the guitar directly into the computer. Nobody can tell.