what do people look for in an archtop?

[plasticpigeon]

I've just looked, and in the UK the Godin costs a similar amount to an epiphone or similar, around £500 - £700. It looks a sweet instrument. Aesthetically speaking I much prefer the look of the old style boxes with lots of binding etc, and to me the Godin looks well thought out but not so elegant, but having been a bit disappointed with the epiphone and samick that I have owned, if I decide to change my guitar I would definitely try the Godin with a single P90. However for an acoustic instrument I agree the Loar looks beautiful and I believe they are far eastern! I don't mind where an instrument comes from at all either, it is just that all the affordable far eastern guitars i have seen (not the epi elitist range for example) share some similar aspects of finish and construction that I don't really like.

[randyc]

Your point may be "apparent" to you, but it's lost on me. I don't care where a guitar was made. All I care about is how well it plays and how it sounds to me. Those criteria are weighed against the cost of the instrument. If I can get a better bang-for-the-buck ratio in an Asian-made guitar, then guess what? I'm going to buy one. I'm inclined to believe that your comments, which frequently reference China, are influenced by a chauvinism that I do not share. Moreover, whether a guitar increases in value, or not, is of little consequence to me. I am not a guitar collector.

Again, if it's so important to you that I play a Gibson L5 CES, I'll give you the URL to my Amazon.com wish-list. As for me, the financial support of my daughter--who's currently studying abroad--precludes the extravagance of a $10,000.00 guitar purchase. And, to be brutally honest, I've played many very expensive instruments, and I've yet to come across one that sounds better than a $1200 The Loar LH-700 (I've yet to get my hands on the one I really want, The Loar LH-650.) I'm sorry if it causes you some sort of inexplicable distress, but the prospect of getting a sweet-sounding, gorgeous, hand-carved-solid-wood guitar with a nitrocellulose lacquer finish is too good to pass up.

We'll have to agree to disagree... unless you change your mind about gifting me with that L5.

Amazon.com: Gibson Custom L-5 CES Electric Guitar, Natural: Musical Instruments

Why would you want my L-5 when your Asian guitars are so much better and cost so little money? Your personal opinions cause me no distress whatsoever BUT when those opinions are multiplied by all of you Walmart shoppers, then the future scenario isn't going to be good for any of us.

The guitar that I referred to earlier, the Epiphone Emperor Regent wasn't made in China, it was made in Korea. There are lots of internal photographs on that thread that show the "quality" of the MIK guitars. Not that I see much difference in any of those things, Chinese or Korean. Why don't people just call them all a "Samick" and dispense with the pretense of all the other silly names?

The only instruments that really compare with good American and European archtops were those made in Japan during the seventies. You know the ones that were identical copies of those made in Kalamazoo. Once the Japanese worker's standard of living increased to the point that Japanese guitars could no longer be made profitably, the economic pattern shifted to Korea, Indonesia and now China.

It's all the same financial model and the result will be the same as a physical model that I've mentioned here before: entropy.

Entropy refers to the gradual equalization of energy levels throughout the universe. As hot particles give up their heat, the cooler particles absorb the heat and become warmer. At a certain point, all will be the same temperature.

Ditto for financial equalization. Once we've spent our disposable income on Third World products, allowing them to achieve First World Economic status, what's the new status quo? We all have the same standard of living and since the Third World countries can only move in one direction, I leave it as a mental exercise to determine in what direction the First World countries must move.

As a socialist-leaning inidividual, I take a certain comfort at the end game result. As an American, I'm not so happy about the world my kids will have to live in. Our best days as a country are behind us - the Asian countries made good plans, executed them with a dedicated work force and they are consequently eating our lunch.

And you're paying them to do it. An enviable strategy, various formerly successful industries are targeted and then Walmarted. At some point, guess who will be setting prices when there is little or no competition? I really wouldn't take pride in the ability to spot a bargain ... there may well come a day when that will not be highly regarded.

Nevertheless, it's inevitable, sort of a Darwinian form of market evolution. Nobody wants to see the future, it won't affect them individually after all. And shoot, buying your $1200 Loar (who would be spinning in his grave at the use of his name) isn't going to hurt anyone, is it?

Keep rationalizing, using those "bang-for-the-buck" phrases that sound good if you say them real fast. Anything can become believable if it's repeated often enough, right? It may take a decade or so for you to change your opinion .... (or maybe after your job gets cut as the next profitable industry becomes Walmarted).

This is NOT personal, please don't think that it is. When I was young, I had little regard for the future. Didn't even have children until I was 40 and THEN I started looking at the future ... unhappily, every cynical financial prediction made twenty years ago has come to pass except the situation is worse than anyone could have thought.

Ten million jobs are gone. They won't be coming back. I was lucky, I retired when I was 55 and have the wherewithal to send my kids to school and get them well-established in a career. My wife and I are comfortable so I really don't have a horse in this race.

The post that I made on the Emperor Regent was the end of the honeymoon for me - before that time, I regarded cheap, imported guitars as a good thing for aspiring musicians. Now I see the quality short-cuts that are being made so that pricing will eventually walmart the corporations - that invented the archtop guitar - out of business.

When I play any of my American-made instruments, I hold a piece of history in my hands. I'm constantly aware of an unending chain of tradtion dating back to the 18th century. Although of less historical interest, even my Fenders make me respect the inventive minds that developed those products and NOT from copying the work of someone else.

[Hoopskidoodle]

You may want to check out a used Eastman or Heritage if you're interested in getting a carved top...

I'll definitely do that. I'm going to weigh all of my options before I purchase another arch-top. I'm certainly not opposed to buying a used guitar.

[Hoopskidoodle]

Pickups: floating pickups are less common on laminated tops, so you may be looking awhile for that combo, unless you modify the guitar yourself.

Both the Epiphone Emperor Regent and the Grestch G100CE have laminated tops and a floating pick-ups. I'm sure there are others, but those leapt immediately to mind.

Wider neck: The Fifth Avenues are 1.72", what are you looking for, 1.75"? That's subtle. I find neck contour makes a bigger difference to me than small differences in nut width, but maybe that's just me.

I'm quite tall and I have very large hands. If I were to ever build my own arch-top guitar--or more likely, have one built--it would have a neck as wide as my nylon string guitar (a hair over 2"), only with a 10"-16" radius going up the neck. Of course, since I'm not likely to find that on a mass produced guitar, I'll settle for a 1.75" nutwidth.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I'm quite tall and I have very large hands. If I were to ever build my own arch-top guitar--or more likely, have one built--it would have a neck as wide as my nylon string guitar (a hair over 2"), only with a 10"-16" radius going up the neck. Of course, since I'm not likely to find that on a mass produced guitar, I'll settle for a 1.75" nutwidth.

I think Lenny Breau had a guitar made for him with a wide neck for fingerpicking, or maybe it was to make switching between it and a classical guitar easier.

I'm quite happy playing classical guitars with their 2" nut. If you're willing to play a solid body like a Tele-style guitar, it doesn't cost that much to order a custom neck from USACG or Warmoth. and both make "super-wide" (1 7/8") necks with that compound radius.

[randyc]

That's simple, it's because in the stated scenario, I wouldn't be paying for it. I'd be reaping the benefits of owning an exorbitantly priced luxury item/objet d'art whilst incurring none of the costs. If someone wants to give me a $10,000 guitar, I am exactly shameless enough to hang it on the wall in my office with a sign under it reading;

Hey, everybody!
I've got a Gibson L5 and you don't.
So suck it!

The remainder of your post, which amounts to a politico-economic tirade, doesn't interest me in the least.

Your unconcern for politics and economics was obvious from your first post ... I wasn't trying to re-educate you.

Actually my responses weren't even specifically directed at you, it was convenient to use your posts to make my points because there are others that read these threads, many have an open mind and ARE concerned with politics and economics - those aren't dirty words, by the way.

They are not topics that one frequently encounters in a musical forum but this forum IS about gear and gear (whether I like it or not) is all about Chinese and other Asian imports, therefore a topic of interest. FWIW, this same discussion goes on constantly on two other forums of which I'm a member. I'm not the only one concerned about economic trends in the music industry.

I may think about these things more than most people do, I may talk about them more than most people do, but my motives are subject only to your speculation - you don't know me and you have no idea why I consider the topic important enough to risk making people angry by repeating my position.

So the little crack above - besides being tasteless - isn't really germane to any part of this discussion. If you were a more <seasoned> member, you'd take this sort of discussion in stride, it's fairly common. Just relax, our moderator will advise us if we deviate from his policy too far

[Steve Z]

Wow, this thread had been really hijacked... valid points by many posters. Can we just agree to disagree and stay within the bounds of the thread (original post quoted below)? Thanks.

I've been musing over this question as I've just bought a samick archtop, which although nice, but could not be described as beautiful. I feel it also needed some finishing off to make it nice to play. I am not a very good player and for me much of the joy of owning a guitar is that it is a beautiful object as well as making a pleasing sound. In my spare time I do some instrument restoration and although I haven't made a whole guitar yet I hope to accomplish that soon. I was thinking what would be the most important features and what price is about right for the perfect guitar. My thoughts at the moment are that the back and sides could be laminate or plywood with an attractive figured veneer on the outside to keep costs down, and the front should be carved spruce. It should have nitrocellulose lacquer rather than the thick poly finish that most mass produced instruments have. I think the neck should have a dovetail joint and be cantilevered so it only contacts the top in the area of the neck block so as not to inhibit the vibration of the top. After that I imagine that colour, inlays, binding and electrics are all personal taste. And price - what is a good price??? I'm sure you can see what I'm thinking. Some time in the future I would love to market a hand made instrument but with elements of mass production to keep the costs down in order to hit that middle ground of a good quality attractive guitar made to customers requirements but that costs less than a gibson or really high end luthiers. Maybe this exists already though. Perhaps the new D'angelico excel range or similar. What do people think?

[Hoopskidoodle]

I think Lenny Breau had a guitar made for him with a wide neck for fingerpicking, or maybe it was to make switching between it and a classical guitar easier.

I'm quite happy playing classical guitars with their 2" nut. If you're willing to play a solid body like a Tele-style guitar, it doesn't cost that much to order a custom neck from USACG or Warmoth. and both make "super-wide" (1 7/8") necks with that compound radius.

Kevin Eubanks (jazz guitarist and musical director of the Tonight Show) also has a collection of luthier-made (I forget by whom) jazz boxes with very wide necks.

I'm aware of the Warmouth superwide necks (with the fretboard over-hang.) I considered getting one for my Strat, but then I got used to playing it stock. If it was a Mexican-Made one, that's exactly what I would have done.

FYI: Agile makes several solid body electric guitars with 1¾" necks. Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of that until I'd already become enamoured of big fat jazz-boxes.

Agile AL-3100M CSB Wide Duncan SH w/Case at RondoMusic.com

[Hoopskidoodle]

...Thanks.

No, thank you.

[randyc]

Yet again, reality and what is "obvious" to you are far afield. I simply don't think that a jazz guitar forum is an appropriate venue for that sort of soapbox ranting.

Fine, but you don't get to MAKE those decisions for the rest of us. If my posts annoy you, why not avoid reading them, spare yourself the frustration over things that you can't control

[X-500]

For this I have a Guild X-170 from the late 80s. For years it was my only archtop. If you aren't familiar with this model, it has a 24.75" scale with two humbuckers and is opften compared to the Gibson ES-175 (but usually for a lot less money).
FWIW, a lot of the other Guild archtop models (used) can often be found for about the same price as a new Korean or Chinese instrument.
Just my 2 cents.
Brad

Guild = the best values in archtops from the "golden era"

You guys are my heroes!

Smart men, listen to them!

[X-500]

I'm in agreement with Mr. Randy's political views. As him, I am left of the political persuasion and have lamented the declining state of our (United States) ability to manufacture/craft goods domesticaly. I can remember a time buying goods that were almost entirely made in America - shoes, clothes tools, electronics, ect. It was the exception to buy products from Asia . And yes, back then they were inferior.

Now; it seems that we have very little choice but to buy products that come from Asia - inferior or not (without getting into the specific reasons: economic, social, political and or geopolitical).
However, if I can, and whenever possible, I'll buy American. It just makes me feel better that I have supported my countrymen. Also, damn it, we still make quality stuff here. Wow, I guess that makes me patriotic without waging some kind of "Operation Freedom or Other" overseas.

In that spirit, that's one of the reasons I bought my Guilds - even though the Guild factory is now defunct and buying them is not supporting present manufacturing jobs. I suppose it's part nostagic too - partly that they are also finely crafted instruments made in the tradition that I have remembered and was brought up on (yes, that tradition still lives). Mostly, in my very humble opinion, they are the best value for me in an archtop guitar.

PS. The most expensive was my X-700 ($2,500 US).
And I'll get off the soapbox now - thank you for reading!

[randyc]

I never suggested that you shouldn't continue to rave like a mad man. I'm simply not going to respond to any of that nonsense.

LOL, but you're STILL responding ... rather than ignoring my posts as I suggested. Look up the definition of "forum" and you may find that the free exchange of differing opinions is the entire point. If one is unaccustomed to disagreement then a forum may not be a comfortable place to hang out.

I'm sorry that I pushed your buttons, it wasn't my intent to draw you into an argument - my initial statement was pretty innocuous. I think this country has made some really bad decisions in recent years and those are MY hot buttons (our economic future being one of my major concerns). Nothing personal was implied in my generic arguments, no need for you to interpret them that way.

cheers,
randyc

[randyc]

Well, that's ONE way of solving a problem - pretend that it doesn't exist I wish that our economic problems could be accomodated that simply

[Bill C]

The only instruments that really compare with good American and European archtops were those made in Japan during the seventies.

Based on the two Jim Hall models I've played, in my opinion, the "made in Japan/finished in Brooklyn" Sadowsky archtops are as good or better in terms of sound/playability and apparent build quality than any wholly American archtops I've played.

IIRC, I've never played a European archtop, despite being European. I understand the buy local argument, but at the end of the day I will buy the guitar that speaks to me, regardless of origin. Mind you, given the apparent scarcity of European archtops, maybe I'm off the hook!

[SamBooka]

Wow, this thread had been really hijacked... valid points by many posters. Can we just agree to disagree and stay within the bounds of the thread (original post quoted below)? Thanks.

I would like to point out that it wasnt ME that brought up the Emperor Regent.

To answer the ORIGINAL question: What do you look for in an archtop?

Smartass answer: Arch

Serious Answer: I am open to all guitars. You try one and (sometimes unexpectedly) It just feel right. On paper I would have to say 17inch; 25 1/2 scale; Single Pickup (preferably a P90 but on a cheapo a floater is fine, I can remove it and install a P90 without too many messy holes); Cutaway.

Esthetically, not too gaudy, vintage sunburst, ventian cutaway. I love the look of my Emp Regent. I dont like the look of the Aria FA-71 even though it is a marginally better guitar in the same price range.

[Archie]

For me, it's the magical combination of good playability, good tone, and it has to be ugly so nobody will want to steal it off of the bandstand.
I'm currently thinking about getting this guitar:

Here's mine:



It's not ugly, is it?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

For me, it's the magical combination of good playability, good tone, and it has to be ugly so nobody will want to steal it off of the bandstand.

If you wanna be happy for the rest of your life,
Never make a pretty woman your wife.
So from my personal point of view,
Get an ugly girl to marry you.

[plasticpigeon]

Here's mine:



It's not ugly, is it?

I don't think it's ugly, but not the most beautiful instrument either.

[brad4d8]

In that spirit, that's one of the reasons I bought my Guilds - even though the Guild factory is now defunct and buying them is not supporting present manufacturing jobs. I suppose it's part nostagic too - partly that they are also finely crafted instruments made in the tradition that I have remembered and was brought up on (yes, that tradition still lives). Mostly, in my very humble opinion, they are the best value for me in an archtop guitar.

While not in the old Westerly shop, there is a Guild factory in Connecticut, shared with but separate from Ovation. They are not currently making any archtops, but it wouldn't surprise me if they start up in the future. I've been following the Guild prices on eBay and would say that for hollow and semi-hollow guitars they are consistently well below comparable Gibsons, and I personally have never found a Gibson that was any better made. Bear in mind I'm prejudiced, I own six Guilds, although only two archtops, and only one Gibson.

Brad

[X-500]

"While not in the old Westerly shop, there is a Guild factory in Connecticut, shared with but separate from Ovation. They are not currently making any archtops, but it wouldn't surprise me if they start up in the future "

Hi Brad,

Yes, there has been speculation on that - or maybe hopes
My X-500 was made in Corona, CA; the last location of production Guild archtops. It would be interesting to find out if the Guild Custom Shop in Nashville is still producing archtops FRETS.COM Field Trip

[randyc]

Thanks for posting that link, Alex, nice stuff there !! Brad, ditto for the info on the arrangement with Ovation. As a longtime Guild admirer and proud owner of a Waverley (natural finish) SFIII, I enjoy any little bits of info anyone cares to share on these fine instruments.

[jackeroo]

Pickups: floating pickups are less common on laminated tops, so you may be looking awhile for that combo, unless you modify the guitar yourself.

Wider neck: The Fifth Avenues are 1.72", what are you looking for, 1.75"? That's subtle. I find neck contour makes a bigger difference to me than small differences in nut width, but maybe that's just me.

Not so..... I have a Gibson ES165 2005 model with a floating pickup. A most excelent George Benson or Johnny Smith kind of sound.

This model is a greater step from t he usual 165 with decal Gibson insigna, and cheaper hardware.

My 165 has full MOP insigna, and qualiy tulip style gold tuning keys, fleur-de-lys bridge insets, and the the floater is the same used on the LaGrande model.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I still sticking with this: on laminated tops, mounted pickups are more common than floating pickups. Note: "more common"; I'm not claiming that floaters are non-existent.

[randyc]

BDLH is right (which should surprise none of us). There's not a great deal of logic behind installing floating pickups on a laminated top. The ES-165 may have some internal structural differences from a 175 of which I'm unaware, but to me they sound pretty much alike. (That's a compliment BTW, since the ES-175 is arguably the most iconic jazz guitar ever produced.) The best-known accoustic recordings of a laminated guitar were probably those made by Joe Pass. He pulled that off by virtuosity, not by the excellent accoustic properties of his ES-175.

I notice that floaters are becoming more common on mass-produced, laminated guitars these days, I suspect that has more to do with production costs than actual market demand. Seems like a large percentage of those who buy the Asian instruments replace virtually every electronic part on them anyway, so why should the manufacturer incur the extra costs involved with routing and installing a more expensive pickup? (And, as has been mentioned a couple of times here, it's easier to modify a guitar with a floater, rather than having to work around a pre-routed hole in a top.)