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Gitterbug: contact info?
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07-09-2022 09:51 PM
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Website: TOOB
Originally Posted by Bach5G
E-mail: toobspeakers@gmail.com
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It's not as sensitive to picking as a good tube ampBut why consider it a fantastic amp for blues then? I can't think of any other genre where these two things are more sought-after in playing and sound..when it's dialed to break up, it does so regardless of how hard the guitar is played
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In my experience, most blues guitarists just want a consistent, overdriven tone. Some like to have the boost for fills and solos and a cleaner tone for chording. Pedals (channel switching or separate effects) let them switch between the two cheaply, easily and immediately. And some pedals even add touch / pick sensitivity - my Wampler Tumnus and J Rockett Touch have enough of it to be useful. The original ZenDrive is a wonderful pedal for this, but I foolishly failed to buy one when they were available and affordable. Originally Posted by Alter
I don’t think most blues players control their pick dynamics well enough to take advantage of an amp that will respond to such subtlety. And I don’t think most guitar / amp combos are sufficiently sensitive to just roll back the guitar’s volume pot &/or to pick more lightly and clean up a dirty tone with little volume loss. Most of the amps I’ve used that let you do that are high end, expensive, heavy tube units. I’m told the Quilters will also do that with most pickups, but the only one I have is a Microblock.
So the Tone Master Deluxe is a great amp for blues players who like a modestly overdriven tone and don’t need to rapidly switch to a clean one. Starting with the guitar pot a bit more than halfway up and the amp set right at the edge of smooth breakup, you can’t dial back the grit much without also cutting back the volume. Cranking the guitar’s volume further will increase the breakup (along with the volume, if output is on the higher wattage settings). The guy who brought it to our Friday gig told me it wasn’t even close to as responsive to picking changes as his Quilters, but the tone is great and it’s easy to carry. For reference, his main rig for years has been a highly modded Blues Jr (6V6 etc). Yes, he has bad GAS - he bought an Aviator Cub when they came out, sold it within weeks. But so far, the TMD has been keeping him happy.
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Fender ToneMaster Twins will eat gigs for breakfast. Having used one on a gig I’m a fan. I will probably get one if I ever have any money ever again.
The TOOB is light and handy.
I would say the Quilter Superblock and a TOOB 10 (I forget the specific model sorry Gitterbug ) it handles more like a pokey little pro junior or blues junior than a Princeton (which I also own) and this NO BAD THING, because those little fellas work. A little rough around the edges though at volume, although the PRRI can sound a little pinched too sometimes.
i will only use this in face up configuration.
It’s the only amp currently in my house atm due to building work, and I am perfectly happy to use it for my playing. I have the three TOOBs and between these can cover most small gigs. I also use it as an acoustic amp with the Metro FrFR model. The hall style reverb is nice here.
Weirdly with the Toob metro BG it smooths out a lot - and becomes a bit more like the princeton. Otoh less headroom.
not sure how it works with the other toob models. Through the princetons speaker itself there’s really not much in it between the Princeton and the Superblock. The main difference is the more ‘hall/digital’ style reverb on the latter. I think speaker choice makes all the difference
It does not take drive pedals that work fabulously with the fender quite as well, but it will take them. I think chopping and changing is probably required to find the best choices.
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Btw all the tones on my last video are with the Superblock and toob combo, both mic’d (in the room so leaking into the visible condenser mic) and di’d
Pretty solid jazz tone I think
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So here's where I am after all this discussion and a bunch of playing and testing - undecided. I'm quite blessed to have a decent stable of amps already: 1. Fender Bassman '59 reissue, which I must say is my favorite sounding amp. I use it at lower volumes and it's so articulate and has such an enveloping sound. I'll use pedals or my Helix for overdriven sound when playing rock or blues Sounds especially good with my 7 string. Sure it's a little heavy, but that's not a dealbreaker for me - yet. 2. Gretsch/Victoria Execulux. Made by Victoria out of leftover Gretsch Executive chasis they had after the Gretsch deal fell apart. Basically a Deluxe Reverb circuit in a nice tweed cab. 3. Deluxe Reverb Reissue.
Enter the Tone Masters. Brought home the TM Deluxe Reverb just for fun. Sounded nice and of course was 20lbs lighter than my DRRI, but the DRRI sounded just a bit nicer as far as pick attack goes. Brought the TM back. Of note, is that the Victoria is nicer sounding than the DRRI and is a couple of pounds lighter due to the solid pine cab.
After reading so much here and elsewhere about the TM Twin, I decided to bring one home and try it. I always wanted a Twin, but just never got around to it. So I brought home a TM Twin for T&E. Very impressed with the sound. Has almost the same enveloping quality as the Bassman. I like the built in attenuator. I used the amp on a rock duo gig last night at 22w and it was great. The DI out is helpful too. The amp is 5lbs lighter than the Victoria and 7lbs lighter than the DRRI.
I don't need another amp as I have plenty. But there is duplicity between the Victoria and the DRRI. The Victoria gets the nod if one has to go and I don't mind parting with the DRRI to fund the TM Twin. I've tried a couple variants of Princeton Reverbs as well, thinking that I could sell an amp and have something a little smaller, but I never liked the sounds of the Princetons. I think they are fine amps, but IMHO, cabinet size has a lot to do with the sound I have in my head. I played a few side by side against the TM Twin and a DRRI at GC and I think the cab size is the biggest difference in the sound. I could look into a Henriksen Bud 10, but I suspect that although they sound great from what I've heard, the small cab size may be an issue.
But here are my reservations with the TM Twin:
1. The TM Twin is made in China. I try whenever possible to avoid products made in China. Just my personal thing and I'm fine with the choices made by others. It took a lot for me to buy my Eastman 7. Even the MacBook I'm using right now was assembled in China. Selling a Fender amp made in the US to buy one made in China seems sorta wrong.
2. The jury seems to be out concerning longevity and repairability of these amps.
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Zigracer…. Re your comments about Princetons and their sound. Did you only try 10” or have you ever tried one with a 12”?
I hear a big difference, replaced the 10 on mine and very glad I did.
(‘74 SF modded to BF, mid pot added, Bendix 5992s, and Mercury Magnetics iron.)
jk
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I did try one with a 12" speaker. I really wanted to like it too, as the Princeton is just a little smaller and lighter than the Deluxe Reverb. Just sounded a little "boxy" to me for lack of a better description. Originally Posted by jazzkritter
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I do not think there is anything like the TM series, that is not made in China. I guess what you could do is make a contribution to an organization, that is addressing your concerns, about why you try and avoid products that are made in China. I guess think global, act locally.
The geist of the present time is, Nero handing out shovels for people to dig their own graves. However no one has ever accused me of being optimistic.
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I'm sure I'll get over it either way. I just try at times. TM Twin sure does sound good. Originally Posted by st.bede
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The model, in my Mustang GT100, has many settings available via the phone app, in particular things like adjustable tube bias, and power supply sag. If the tonemaster allows these same adjustments, then did you try them? They should alter the responsiveness, possibly to how you would like it. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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None of this is for me - the TM Deluxe belongs to a guitarist with whom I've been playing blues dates for years. I don't know if he's tried any of that, but I suspect the answer is "no" - so I'll mention it to him. Thanks! I thought he sounded great through the TMD, but I don't think I've ever heard him describe his own sound as anything better than "OK". I fear he's on a perpetual search for the unobtainable. Originally Posted by j4zz
He was the vocalist in our blues band for a few years, and we're both now in the Dukes of Destiny (with me as the #1 backup call for guitar and keys). But I've never played through his TM or any of the other 20+ amps he's owned since I met him. He's bought new amps that stayed in his possession for less than 48 hours. Yes, he seems to pick a few too many nits.......
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The Tone Master amps are not modeling amps. They are digital amps designed to duplicate as exactly as possible the performance and tone of their namesake amps. So you don't dial in a specific model on these amps. The TMTR attempts to duplicate digitally the Twin Reverb amp. It won't sound like any other amp on any setting. Same with the Tone Master Deluxe Reverb. So there are no modeling alternatives to tweak or adjust on these. You just use then like their namesake. And if you don't like the TMDR, you just have to get another amp. Originally Posted by j4zz
I love my TMTR because I always wanted a Twin and this really does the job. If you want an amp that models several different types, that's great, but the Tone Master series is not that amp.
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The Tonemaster amps are indeed modelling amps, with only one model. My suggestion was not to change to a different model, but just adjust some of the parameters of the existing model. I don't know first hand if they allow this adjustment, but given the Fender model in the GT100 allows it, then it's worth seeing if the twin model in the tonemaster allows it as well. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Hey Lawson. The TMTR is a pretty good amp at what it does. But there is something not quite right in what you may have been told:
"The TMTR attempts to duplicate digitally the Twin Reverb amp."
By definition this means it is a modelling amp
The fact you can modify the loaded model with a USB cable update shows this.
It's just a modelling amp with only 1 model. But done well and with the controls and aesthetics of the original amp. So well that for most it probably makes no difference.
Analogue pre-amps do not use any A-D conversion and later switch the manipulated (modelled) digital signals back from D-A. All signal shaping is done with discrete devices or basic ICs.
Its get kinda confusing sometimes though- Roland Blues Cubes are....Analogue (?claimed) but you can replace some of the pre-amp section with a tone capsule (which is also supposedly analogue?) and have a whole different amp tone. Again- done so well that for most it will make no difference if it is analogue or digital.
Those in the know- is a switching class D power amp classified as a digital or analogue amp? That seems grey to me.
Cheers
EMike
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It's not grey, it's analogue. Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
The D in class D doesn't stand for digital. It is a switching amp, and the signal is analogue. The Mustang uses an Icepower class D 100 watt amp. Probably similar in the Tonemasters.
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When you talk about digital/analogue it's not about the power amp. Crack open the amp. Is there a computer inside doing signal processing? Then it's digital. Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
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True, but the specific question was about the power amp. It is analogue. However I can see that being confusing. To try to clarify, the computer modifies the guitar signal according to the model, and it produces a true analogue signal, which is then fed to the power amp. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Here's an explanation of the amp types and the Class D.
What Is Class-D Amplification?
I thought Class D was digital ...
But it's not really digital ...
But I'm having trouble calling it analog
More in between
The incoming analog signal is converted into pulses ... which is similar to pulse code modulation (PCM) ... a method of digitizing an analog signal
One could argue that the pulses are 0s and 1s, but they are never stored and processed as a digital number ... so there's nothing really happening that we can call "digital" .... except maybe the transistors switching on and off, which is how digital circuits operate at the most basic physical level
The pulses are feed into a low pass filter that removes the higher frequencies created by the pulses, which are switching on and off at frequencies at least 15 times the higher audio frequencies
This recreates an amplified version of the original analog signal and feeds it to the speaker
At least that's what I think I read ... corrections are always welcome
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The key is that it is indeed never stored as a number. The analogue signal voltage modulates the pulse width of the high frequency switched pulses in an entirely analogue fashion. This is why a simple filter can remove the high frequency pulses leaving you with original signal (only amplified). Originally Posted by Bluedawg
Digital, in the computer sense, is not just switching. Yes, transistors in computer circuits switch, but there the similarity ends.
A class D amplifier is not at all in-between, it is analogue.
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Thanks J4ZZ
Yeah I appreciated there is no A-D conversion, Binary manipulation and all that would be associated with Digital.
I also knew that Class-D can at first blush to be a misleading name but has nothing to do with Digital.
Realistically can any "Power amp" even be digital? You can't make a bigger 1 or Zero
I find it funny though that at a fundamental level there is a clocked frequency that fragments your signal to equal segments, performs a comparator operation on each segment to make a PWM step function wave form and then re-compiles that modified histogram back into a continuous or close to continuous signal. It kind of sounds like an analogue way of doing what a digital thing sometimes also does. But yes- all analogue all the same.
Either way it is very clever and its application means I am enjoying my Bam200 upon my Toob12S very much!
So many lightweight amps these days are utilising these Class-D strategies. In fact 99% of all devices that make noise (TVs, Mobile phones, In-dash car stereos, Laptops, bluetooth speakers & headphones etc etc, etc.... have been doing so for years. ICE modules are not new inventions.
Thanks for your answers about the Class D bit!
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No probs. Perhaps try thinking of the analogue signal as the energy contained in the switched waveform. The wider the pulses and the smaller the gaps, the more energy being pushed to the speaker. Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
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I stand corrected. I tend to think of "modeling amp" as an amp with lots of models to choose from, and of course, as one of the longest-term owners of a Tone Master on this site, I'm well aware what it does. I misunderstood the post above to imply that one can choose from different models on the Tone Masters, which is not how they work. But I see now he meant something different, and I misunderstood, and as a result, I mis-spoke, so I stand corrected. Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
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Originally Posted by j4zz
Thanks
You're probably right .....
I spent too much time testing analog to digital converters and digital to analog converters many years ago. Still trying to figure out if Nyquist is my friend or not. And all those fast Fourier transforms.
And then those digital to analog converters spitting out pulses into low pass filters that remove their high frequency pulses to recreate the analog signal. Hmmm
Then spent many years trying to keep the 0s and 1s flying across networks spanning the globe. And what happened to all of those IP packets that never made it? Are they still out there?
Can't erase those 0s and 1s from my memory and all those transistors turning on, turning off, turning on, turning off ...
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