Nylon Washers Between Thumbwheels and Saddle?

[pingu]

Not much to add, but here's what I think;
At some point in time someone replaced the wooden saddle with a metal bridge for intonation purposes. The Nylon washers cut some highs, making the acoustic tone closer to the original wooden bridge. When the wooden bridge was restored the washers were accidently left.
I bet there won't be much difference in the amplified tone, but I guess you'll notice a difference in the acoustic tone.

sounds about right I reckon ....

[Bill Eisele]

I had the Shingrix vaccine a year or so ago, and felt no ill effects other than a slight soreness at the injection site for a day or two. I think that if you have a reaction to a vaccine, ir's probably because you needed it.

I think the majority of people have side effects similar to yours, but a small subset experience side effects severe enough to limit their daily activities. Probably because of how the immune system reacts to the vaccine on an individual basis.

[Bill Eisele]

Not much to add, but here's what I think;
At some point in time someone replaced the wooden saddle with a metal bridge for intonation purposes. The Nylon washers cut some highs, making the acoustic tone closer to the original wooden bridge. When the wooden bridge was restored the washers were accidently left.
I bet there won't be much difference in the amplified tone, but I guess you'll notice a difference in the acoustic tone.

It’s possible that could be the reason why the washers are there.

If there is a discernible difference in tone, it probably would be most noticeable acoustically. I will try to post sound files with and without the washers tomorrow.

[Bill Eisele]

So, I went ahead and recorded the guitar with and without the washers. I just played through the open strings several times. The washers are actually bushings that apparently make it easier to turn the thumbwheels. They are made of a very hard plastic of some kind. It does look like nylon. The bottom part of the bushing that is between the saddle and thumbwheel is very thin. The problem is that without them in place the saddle holes are larger than the post diameters so there is slop with the potential to slightly affect intonation. So, if I decide to leave the bushings out, I will at least need to have a new saddle made. I have attached a photo of the bushings and the sound files.

I have formed an opinion as to whether there is a difference in the tone with and without the bushings in place. However, I would be interested to hear if others think there is a discernible difference in the tone and what that difference is before offering my opinion.

Thanks!

Heritage JS without Washers by wfeisele | wfeisele . | Free Listening on SoundCloud

[sgosnell]

Not washers, bushings. They're there to fit the saddle to the posts. The saddle is likely not original, or else buggered up by someone, thus the holes are too big for the posts. So a fix is a choice between keeping the bushings, finding brass bushings that will fit (difficult, maybe impossible) or getting a new saddle. I think keeping these bushings will be okay for at least awhile, and let you play the guitar while you look for another solution. I think it sounds better with the bushings in place, but then it's not likely to sound great with such a mismatch between the posts and saddle holes.

[Tal_175]

To me with the bushings, it has a more crisp attack. Without the bushings, the attack is softer.

[Bill Eisele]

Not washers, bushings. They're there to fit the saddle to the posts. The saddle is likely not original, or else buggered up by someone, thus the holes are too big for the posts. So a fix is a choice between keeping the bushings, finding brass bushings that will fit (difficult, maybe impossible) or getting a new saddle. I think keeping these bushings will be okay for at least awhile, and let you play the guitar while you look for another solution. I think it sounds better with the bushings in place, but then it's not likely to sound great with such a mismatch between the posts and saddle holes.

Yes, a flanged bushing to be exact. I looked online for brass bushings but couldn’t find anything suitable. I guess I could see if a local machine shop could fabricate them. Not sure how much that would cost. I have a StewMac floating bridge on hand but the spacing between the posts doesn’t work to use the StewMac saddle on the existing bridge base. I could just get the StewMac bridge fitted to the guitar. Or, I could send the existing floating bridge out to someone who could fabricate a new saddle.

My take on the tone with and without the bushings is that the tone with the bushings provides a somewhat more well defined, sharper attack. But if you’re into the warmer somewhat muddier tone then you would prefer the bridge without the bushings.

[Bill Eisele]

To me with the bushings, it has a more crisp attack. Without the bushings, the attack is softer.

Yes, that’s my take on the difference with and without the bushings. I’m a little surprised that I was able to capture the difference with my less than adequate recording chain and file compression.

[sgosnell]

I've seen saddles with brass bushings in them, but I don't know of a source for the bushings, or if they would fit in your saddle. There are a couple of standard spacings for posts, but I've also seen some that weren't standard. I have no idea what the spacing on yours is. Matt Cushman, a member here, can make you a saddle if you send him the original, or at least accurate measurements of what you have. I think I might just live with what I had, but it's your guitar and your decision.

[Bill Eisele]

I've seen saddles with brass bushings in them, but I don't know of a source for the bushings, or if they would fit in your saddle. There are a couple of standard spacings for posts, but I've also seen some that weren't standard. I have no idea what the spacing on yours is. Matt Cushman, a member here, can make you a saddle if you send him the original, or at least accurate measurements of what you have. I think I might just live with what I had, but it's your guitar and your decision.

I’ve been looking around on the internet for a source of miniature brass bushings but haven’t seen anything suitable yet. I’ll keep looking. I think I will have the repair technician fit the StewMac floating bridge to the guitar and then send the original floating bridge to Matt to have him fabricate a new saddle. That way I can play the guitar while Matt has the original floating bridge.

[pingu]

the bushings (no flanges)
on my ibz af81
i believe this is the standard bridge and saddle
(not absolutely sure tho)
i don’t believe it affects
the sound

[Marty Grass]

A while back I mentioned that it would not be that tough to put a new bridge base on the guitar. I didn't suggest it, but I have done this when I wanted a greater contact surface with the top and less gap between the saddle and base.

It's also pretty easy to get a taller saddle.

Having done both of these interventions at least several times, I have not found a dramatic difference in sound usually, dramatic meaning that it was improved the sound very noticeably.

The question I now face is whether I'm better off spending my time practicing or modifying a guitar. On the other hand, I do enjoy the tinkering. That joy must count for something.

[sgosnell]

I'm the same way, I enjoy tinkering and experimenting. I have found a noticeable difference in sound between different bases, especially between the solid base and the two-foot type. Which sounds better to me seems to depend on the individual guitar. I've heard it go both ways. The mass of the saddle seems to make some difference, but for me it's not predictable. I just mix and match until I get something I like. To me, archtop sound is a mystery, and I don't really know all I would like to know about all the things that affect it. And there are many, many things that affect it. They just don't seem to do it consistently.

[Jabberwocky]

I'd leave the plastic bushings in. Crisper faster attack by a hair. No meaningful difference in the sound samples.

[KirkP]

I hear a very slight difference, but not enough to prefer one over the other. The differences seem slight enough that they could easily be the result of slight differences in picking technique or mic positioning. I wouldn’t worry about it.

[Tal_175]

I hear a very slight difference, but not enough to prefer one over the other. The differences seem slight enough that they could easily be the result of slight differences in picking technique or mic positioning. I wouldn’t worry about it.

I wouldn't assume the difference is that slight for the player just based on the recording. OP said his recording situation wasn't great and file was compressed. So slight difference heard in the recording might mean it was very noticeable in the room.
Let me put it this way, under the same conditions there would be only slight difference in recording of a short phrase between 5K guitar and a 300 dollar copy, or a Roland Cube 30 amp emulating a Bassman amp and a real Bassman amp if any. Doesn't mean they are all the same. It's surprising the difference was significant enough to come through in fact.

[pingu]

I hear a very slight difference, but not enough to prefer one over the other. The differences seem slight enough that they could easily be the result of slight differences in picking technique or mic positioning. I wouldn’t worry about it.

yeah no huge difference
I'd leave it as Heritage intended I think too

[Bill Eisele]

I wouldn't assume the difference is that slight for the player just based on the recording. OP said his recording situation wasn't great and file was compressed. So slight difference heard in the recording might mean it was very noticeable in the room.
Let me put it this way, under the same conditions there would be only slight difference in recording of a short phrase between 5K guitar and a 300 dollar copy, or a Roland Cube 30 amp emulating a Bassman amp and a real Bassman amp if any. Doesn't mean they are all the same. It's surprising the difference was significant enough to come through in fact.

Surprisingly, I would say that there wasn’t a significant difference between the tone being in the room and what I heard on the recording. And, I had the iPad fixed in a cradle attached to a microphone stand and was sitting in the same location for both tracks. And, I tried to use the same picking technique on both tracks in terms of angle of attack and force. I used a BlueChip TD 60 on both tracks.

My attempts to find suitable brass flanged sleeve bushings online failed and a call to a local machine shop revealed that the cost to fabricate them would be prohibitive. So, I found a source for miniature brass tubing of the correct diameter and thickness to fabricate brass sleeve bushings to take up the slack in the saddle holes left by the nylon bushings. So, I will go for that and then further experiment going back and forth between the brass sleeve bushings and nylon bushings to see if there’s a discernible difference. I may also get the repair technician to fit the StewMac bridge to the guitar. It’s a two footed design versus the solid base design currently on the guitar.

But, in the end, I need to do more practicing and less experimenting!

[sgosnell]

The Stew-Mac bridge doesn't need fitting on most guitars. The base is flexible enough to allow you to just put it on the top and it will self-adjust. When pressure from the strings is exerted on the bridge, the feet take a different angle, so fitting them without pressure can result in a poor contact. It's designed to just work, and usually does. And yes, just the proper size of brass tubing should work fine, no need for the shoulder. With the sleeves in place, the current bridge should be fine.

[Bill Eisele]

The Stew-Mac bridge doesn't need fitting on most guitars. The base is flexible enough to allow you to just put it on the top and it will self-adjust. When pressure from the strings is exerted on the bridge, the feet take a different angle, so fitting them without pressure can result in a poor contact. It's designed to just work, and usually does. And yes, just the proper size of brass tubing should work fine, no need for the shoulder. With the sleeves in place, the current bridge should be fine.

Thanks for the information about the StewMac bridge. I didn’t know about the self-adjustment feature.

[KirkP]

I wouldn't assume the difference is that slight for the player just based on the recording. OP said his recording situation wasn't great and file was compressed. So slight difference heard in the recording might mean it was very noticeable in the room.

I agree that poor recordings aren’t very useful for judging tone, but that’s all that was available.

[Bill Eisele]

I agree that poor recordings aren’t very useful for judging tone, but that’s all that was available.

It would be tempting to get a much better setup for recording but I typically record myself for practice feedback only with the iPad using Spire. I also wonder if a higher resolution audio file that needs significant compression would provide more fidelity than a lower resolution audio file that requires no compression, or are they equivalent? I have a Zoom H4n that can record at 96 kHz/24 bits, but the file would require significant compression and conversion to post it.

[KirkP]

It would be tempting to get a much better setup for recording but I typically record myself for practice feedback only with the iPad using Spire. I also wonder if a higher resolution audio file that needs significant compression would provide more fidelity than a lower resolution audio file that requires no compression, or are they equivalent? I have a Zoom H4n that can record at 96 kHz/24 bits, but the file would require significant compression and conversion to post it.

Sorry, my description of “poor recording” was too harsh. I probably should have said “amateur recording”. There are so many variables in recording, processing, and playback I think it’s difficult to capture slight changes in tone. And I wonder how one could ensure the playing technique was exactly the same on the two recordings, especially since the two recordings were interrupted by taking the bridge apart and retuning.

Of course what’s most important is how it sounds and feels to you as you’re playing. I think I heard a bit more metallic chime without the nylon bushing, especially on the unwound strings. If that annoyed me and couldn’t be dialed out with tone controls I might go back to the bushings. But you might prefer it—that’s totally your call.

Another important factor for me is string-to-string variations, especially between the wound an unwound strings. If one of the two bushing materials seemed to provided more consistency in harmonic content when moving between G and B strings, I might go with that.

[Bill Eisele]

Sorry, my description of “poor recording” was too harsh. I probably should have said “amateur recording”. There are so many variables in recording, processing, and playback I think it’s difficult to capture slight changes in tone. And I wonder how one could ensure the playing technique was exactly the same on the two recordings, especially since the two recordings were interrupted by taking the bridge apart and retuning.

Of course what’s most important is how it sounds and feels to you as you’re playing. I think I heard a bit more metallic chime without the nylon bushing, especially on the unwound strings. If that annoyed me and couldn’t be dialed out with tone controls I might go back to the bushings. But you might prefer it—that’s totally your call.

Another important factor for me is string-to-string variations, especially between the wound an unwound strings. If one of the two bushing materials seemed to provided more consistency in harmonic content when moving between G and B strings, I might go with that.

No offense taken! I would agree that there’s so many variables that it would be difficult to capture slight changes in the tone. I would say that there was about a fifteen minute interlude between the two takes. I tried to be as uniform as possible in my approach both times, but obviously no guarantees.

I just went back and listened to the two tracks and there is slightly more chime in the unwound strings without the bushings. I wonder if the bushings tame the overtones, especially on the unwound strings. I’’m not sure why because the bushing material is pretty hard. I’m not a fan of excessive overtones so perhaps the bushings should be left in.

And, I appreciate your thoughts on the string-to-string balance. I thought I heard more tonal consistency going from the wound G to the unwound B with the bushings in place. That is definitely a goal to achieve.

I just wish I knew if these bushings were original to the guitar or something added on after the fact for one reason or another.

[wintermoon]

well, I like the stock nylon saddles on my 60s Gibsons better than metal.
kind of produces a tone in between metal and wood.
the nylon bushings maybe have a slightly similar effect, though the strings aren't passing over the bushings.