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The one thing I want to emphasize is this amp stands on it's own as a superb sounding amp, tubes or no tubes. It's just a great sounding amp, period. But it happens to be very, very, close to sounding like it's vintage tube counterparts. Not exact, but very close. Close enough for me to dismiss or not be concerned about the extra 1% of vintage black face tube sound alike qualities.
Does it sound "better" than anything else out there? Welllllllll...not necessarily. But IMHO, it can hang with the best of the best, on sound quality alone. I would still like to have a Quilter to go along with my TMTR. One's not likely better than the other, just different. Both are outstanding amps. And there are other outstanding amps. Isn't it fantastic that we have these kind of choices?
But I'm really looking forward to spending more time with my TMTR. I was getting some beautiful tones from it. Which brings up another point...give yourself plenty of time when you audition this amp and/or the TMDR. There is a ton of tonal flexibility built into them and it can take some time to dial your favorite tones in. The EQ stages and controls are very interactive in a very good way. Let alone the power attenuator, the DI mic simulations (IRs), and cab modeling.
But, make no mistake, the TM series of amps were designed and built to get as close to their vintage tube counterparts in sound as possible. And, IMHO, they are close enough to win my complete favor and push me over the cliff toward the SS amp musical abyss. I'm such a poet, LOL!!!
Anyway, you get my drift. I auditioned a $2500 amp made by one of my all time favorite boutique amp builders. And I auditioned it side-by-side, right next to my TMTR. You know which one I took home. And that's quite a testimony. I went to my dealer with the intention of buying the boutique amp. Would I still like to have the boutique amp? You'd better believe it. But if it comes down to one or the other the TMTR would win...and did. I can tell you without hesitation I would have spent the extra $1500 on the boutique amp had it had superior tone. Don't get me wrong, the boutique amp sounded superb. But for me and my application, I liked the sound of the TMTR better.
I'll be playing 90% to 95% jazz and the remaining 5% to 10% will be jump blues and perhaps some traditional blues. The TMTR should easily handle all those genres/sub-genres with equal aplomb. Fun stuff this.
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02-29-2020 12:06 PM
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Only yesterday I had the chance to plug a '52 reissue Telecaster into each of the TM amps at the local Mom&Pop emporium. I loved what I heard! Did it sound better (to me) than the hand-wired Princeton next to it? Well... yes, actually it did. Got me thinking.
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damn, im getting gas for one of these DR now.. So the DR has enough clean headroom? Im just playing jazz with a trio/quartet, im sure it would be fine.
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Try an Xotic Sweet Boost pedal in front of your Tonemaster or Quilter and you will now get the 1 to 5% you've been missing!
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It has enough clean headroom for a rockband with 2 guitars, a bass and a drummer. I think it's comparable with my Vibrolux headroom wise. And if it doesn't, you have reached the level where there should be a decent PA, which you can hook up to with a simple XLR cable. You can even use a powered monitor with the DI if you need to.
Originally Posted by jazzgtrl4
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i wonder what the tech is behind these TM amps ...
analogue ?
digital modelling ?
(they seem to have got it right
tho , according to u guys !)
difficult call for Fender ....
if they get it right they hurt
their tune amp sales
if they get it wrong ....
they just get it wrong
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I assume it's all digital, modeling and signal processing. Just like a modern recording studio. The TMs have the advantage of modeling only one amp, unlike a "modeling amp". Computing horsepower is cheap these days, so they could theoretically have one processor calculating the reverb signal every 16 mSec while another manages gain overdrive simulation, etc.
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4 core DSP processor with 2 devoted to the 12 second long Impulse Response reverb with 1 each for the direct out cab sim and the main amp sound according to the blurbs.
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This really should be cross-linked to all the posts about 'are SS amps as good as tubes' etc.
I think in the long run this is going to be good for Fender, and a bit scary for folks like Quilter.
It sure doesn't hurt that they look exactly like their tubist counterparts. I always found that taking the Boogie plate off the front of my Mesas really helped them get a better jazz sound :):):)
(i'm a longtime tube snob. bought what might be the first 'boutique' tube amp '76 and a few Fenders before that. now loving Quilter TB202... and not because of it's size and weight)
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As my audio engineer son told me: "these amazing amps have the processing power of a multicore computer."
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A "lowly" Fender Mustang III v.2, modded with a Celestion G12-65's been the "go-to" amp for cleans in my friend's studio, making an average of 240 sessions every year since 2017, turning the studio's own '65 Twinreverb RI into a luxury condo for spiders.
That and Scuffham's S-Gear amp modeling (and some Amplitube 4 as well) provide every single required nuance to record guitar in a non-ear-bleeding enviroment.
YMMV.
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The ToneMaster models are great practical gigging amps -- love my TMDR and I bought it over the TMTR merely for size convenience. Not regretting my choice. Originally Posted by TedBPhx
Now kinda off topic here, but I wonder why instead of using half the processing power to create a complex reverb, Fender didn't just use a spring reverb tank . The processed reverb in the TM amps sound good but not better than a spring reverb, and a spring reverb tank doesn't weigh much so it wouldn't add to the weight advantage. I think it would also have brought the price down. Just wondering...
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Reverb: I don't remember the name, but there is reverb software that recording studios use regularly. I recall reading somewhere that Fender has licensed that software and put it into the Tonemaster amps. So I guess Fender might use digital reverb for the same reason that a recording studio might not use a reverb tank or plate reverb anymore. Part of that might be physical and mechanical components, particularly springs, which are inclined to wear out over time. Just a guess.
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I would bet that a spring reverb would cost more than a digital version, and be less reliable. If the processing power is already available, might as well use it and save some money in the process.
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I don't mean to derail this thread...
I'm really town between the Quilter TB202 and the TM Deluxe Reverb
I can't try the Quilter in person although I tried the TM Deluxe and was really blown away by it.
Would love to read some comments from people who have both the 202 Quilter and a Tonemaster Fender.
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You'd also need analog circuits to drive the tank and recover the reverb signal. Definitely more complex than modeling it. Originally Posted by archtopeddy
Danny W.
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Oh dang! Just popped in the nearby music store that had Tone Master Deluxe on the shelf. Had time to try it about five minutes with a standard telecaster. Talking same time with the familiar sales guy about his Bluguitar Amp1.
Oh dang, TMDR sounded soooo good! As crystal clear and warm as a fine tube amp can be! Never could guess that it ain't a tube amp.
Oh dang!
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First many thanks to Lawson for his wonderfully informative and musically enjoyable posts on this topic. As usual this forum proves to be absolutely the most helpful and generous of any I've ever encountered and thanks to all of you as well. So my situation is I have been a singer songwriter since I was 14, that's 57 years ago if you are counting. I had my time in the NY folk and blues scene and have stayed with music as much as a second career in medicine allowed. I am SO fortunate that I've arrived at near retirement from that in good health and with lots of energy and have gone headlong back to music. I have a recording and performance studio that is very active. I primarily played keyboard professionally but always loved guitar and wanted to really learn it. Just recently fully engaged in this with focus on jazz both as a guitarist and for this to grow my composition skills. This forum has pointed me to many great resources and I'm usually out of bed and playing at 6am, this is from someone who NEVER got up early unless forced.
I'm recording a superb jazz duo, piano and guitar and some blues bands and started to up my readiness with a great amp rather than relying on UA/Apollo magic. Btw I sold these amps and guitars (and keyboards) at Manny's music from 1972-74 but I never bought amps cause I was strictly a folkie in my performing. I ended up getting an Amplified Nation Overdrive Reverb after driving up to their place and testing them. It is incredibly good for clean jazz and rocks beyond belief. But....I needed another amp for more than one player and something I could take to gigs. I got a Blackstar St. James which sounded great and weighs 24 lbs. The first one had a microphonic tube, went back. The second started blowing the power fuse, I assume a bad rectifier tube. This happened within 2 months. So I figured time for a different solution. I stumbled on these Tone Masters which check all the boxes. Figure I have my tube bliss amp which ain't leaving the studio, let's see about SS. After listening and learning from Lawson and others I have ordered both a Twin and Deluxe and will keep one. The Twin arrived today and......Holy you pick the word....it sounds GREAT. The direct cab simulated out also is great and I'm comparing it to my OX box which I use for the Amplified Nation. Fender made a brilliant decision to first only model one amp in their choices and then only model its own cabinet with just 2 mics. BTW the Blackstar had this feature but tried to model multiple cabs and mics, (like the OX) all poorly. I only tested the Twin recording for a few minutes but the quality is clearly professional and album ready. If the deluxe, which arrives tomorrow, is this good and gives me enough clean headroom I'll probably go for it. But I would miss the mid control and bright switches. I like having as much eq control at the source as possible. Get it right in the room before it hits the board as they say. Anyway whichever I keep I'll have a great tool, that I can carry no less! I'll report back.....Peter
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I know this is a bit of a zombie thread but I also have had some recent experiences with the ToneMaster Twin.
My initial experiences with it were negative. It felt dark, muted, compressed. Last night I played one with a group, 4 horns, guitar, piano, bass, drums. I was too lazy to take an amp. I plugged into the TMTR and remembered something someone told me to try out. Something I would probably never do on a real blackface amp... I flipped the Bright Switch to "ON". OMG it was a revelation; mud parted and I could hear my guitar.
I dig these amps now.
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What the... You are one brave jazzer! Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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Sacrilege! Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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I play every week at a buddy's house who has the Deluxe Reverb Tone Master amp. It really is a nice sounding amp that feels an awful lot like playing a tube amp. This is compared to my early 70s Pro Reverb or my 5E3 clone, or to his black faced silverface Twin Reverb.
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I had the opportunity to pick up a used Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb at a very attractive price and I bought it thinking that if I did not like it, I would just flip it for more money. It has turned out to be my preference for an at-home studio amp. This from a guy who owns and has his choice of jazz amps from Polytone, DV Mark, Acoustic Image, and Henriksen. To me, the TMDR has that classic, crispy Fender tone. Any comparison to the tone of a tube version must be, to me at least, just splitting hairs.
On the other hand, one of the guys I play with frequently has a Quilter Aviator Cub, which is sort of aimed at the same crowd of players. When I have played through that, I have been underwhelmed.
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The modelling isn't very sophisticated. Pretty basic techniques throughout. Lots of stuff you can find on GitHub.
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Interesting to see the above comments. I've been comparing the DR and TR side by side since yesterday. I'll give a more detailed impression and some examples of playing directly recorded material reamped through them both. But as off now (I'll be sending one back by end of week) I'll keep the DR. One reason is that I do find it just a bit brighter I'd say a bit more chime when going for jazz tones which can cut both ways but I like it. I agree the TR is darker, and the bright switch makes a difference, but I also like some of what lives in the darkness, it gives a fullness more than the DR. The 2 speakers play a role here. This is less apparent when recording direct outs. I find the DR has more than enough clean HR (my main question) and I like the dirty tone it gives much more readily than the twin. No surprise there. I do play/sing lot's of blues based stuff when gigging so it's a feature not a bug in my case. Starting a rehearsal now, show tomorrow. I'll post some stuff Monday.
PS the direct out recording from both amps is excellent. I like the 421 better on the deluxe and the 57 better on the TR consistent with the brightness issues discussed.
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